[DiogenesLamp]

Our Founders demonstrated, twice, by their actions what they believed were legitimate and valid methods of secession:

In 1776 they declared independence from Britain, not "at pleasure", but of absolute necessity after a long list of "usurpations" and "abuses of power" by Brits, including the fact that England had already declared and launched war against Americans.

No. I refuse to accept the addition of the words "At Pleasure" to the debate.

The founders made it clear that people could leave for any reason they chose, and your attempts to make it conditional are an effort to add a lie to the discussion. No, the Declaration of Independence is not conditional. It does not require good reasons, it does not require any reasons, it simply states "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," .

The Union had lost the consent of the governed in the Southern States. NO OTHER CONSIDERATION IS NECESSARY.

But no Founder ever suggested that unilateral unapproved declarations of secession "at pleasure" were acceptable, lawful or constitutional.

Except for that DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE" thing, which says exactly that.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "No.
I refuse to accept the addition of the words 'At Pleasure' to the debate."

Then you are an idiot, pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less.

Did you ever actually read the Declaration of Independence?
Did you somehow fail to catch what it says about serious actions taken "at pleasure"?

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations..."

No Founder ever disputed this basic concept, and it was expressed more fully by Madison in 1830.

DiogenesLamp: "The founders made it clear that people could leave for any reason they chose, and your attempts to make it conditional are an effort to add a lie to the discussion."

No, it's you who are lying.
Our Founders were clear: no unilateral secession "at pleasure".

DiogenesLamp quoting DOI: "...organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

And that is followed in the next sentence by the cautionary words against "at pleasure" secession I quoted above.