Right handed with a cross draw shoulder rig
Same rig different day,
Classic cowboy rig
>
Posted on 01/30/2016 12:33:54 AM PST by EternalVigilance
One explanation of how the shooting of LaVoy Finicum unfolded. Worthy of consideration, IMO.
I just want to eliminate rumor and find the truth. When all possibilities have been eliminated, what is left is true. Like I said, I found additional video which shows he was right handed, or at most ambidextrous. Which shuts down the ‘left handed’ rumor. Works for me.
According to the writeup in the American Rifleman (in 1991 or 1993, March issue iirc), Weaver was given the incorrect date to begin with, but the government still went after him on this because they had to convict him of something.
Everything else he was charged with was bogus .... shotgun measurements (he cut the barrels legal 18"), everything.
And it wasn't even about him. It was about forcing him to spy on the Covenanters who were the real objects of the government's campaign.
Which, btw, was a Bush Administration campaign: Bush 41 despises nobody in this world like white trailer-trash who didn't go to Yale. The rest of us he "respects where they're at".
Right-wing gunpunks and bully boys were bottom of the barrel, so Covenanters were absolute tops of his "*hit parade", worse even than Communist spies and jihadi saboteurs.
That's what Bush 41 was working on just before he left office, cleaning up the Davidians, more gunpunks.
I believe that. There was a round through the windshield. He might have been hit before he left the vehicle.
..........I don’t think this little officer involved shooting is going away for a long time. It’s worse than Ruby Ridge because the cops were MORE motivated to kill Lavoy and less to kill that woman. Plus, Ruby Ridge did not get caught on video.
I hope it doesn’t go down the memory hole, just like Waco II. There is some serious stormtrooper stuff going on in the halls of Law Enforcement, and the FLEAs are in it deep.
Police won't think of any of that. All they will see is hands going into a jacket, after fleeing a stop, almost hitting a road block, and jumping out of his vehicle. Not a good combo for those interested in not getting shot.
Go through it, frame by frame. Brake lights are ON at 9:12. (Approx. 9:12.3 as close as I can tell.) Brake lights STAY ON from that point on. Swerve begins a full second later (or very close to a full second), well into 9:13.
What vid are YOU watching? Jurassic Park?
Correct - a catastrophic blowout can get one a vehicle out of control crashing into the roadblock, bystanders, LEO’s, you name it. I’m guessing that on a road with few turnoffs you put ‘em at least a mile up the road in a spot where they can’t be avoided (if possible). Then wait for them to take effect.
Maybe someone with actual experience can comment.
Well, I never ran over one, but in the land of Los Angeles TV Helicopter Police chases, I have learned all I know from the LA chopper pilots and newscasters.
What were the road conditions?
Dry
Wet
Icy
Black Ice
??
An experienced cold weather driver would have avoided brakes in many of these conditions. Would have induced an unpredictable slide/spin.
The road block was set up just past a turn. I honestly don't think, from the time he hit the brakes, he could stop in time.
He avoided hitting it, and narrowly avoided hitting whoever that was (presumably a LEO) who was stepping into the path of the pickup when he went to the left of the roadblock.
No one who has driven around deep snow thinks they are going to keep going far.
Hitting deep snow is like hitting a sand ramp--it absorbs a lot of energy fast, and commonly packs the underside and engine compartment of the vehicle, sometimes with enough material and force to lift the chassis of the vehicle high enough that no traction can be obtained. On occasion, the engine is shut down by snow packed into the engine compartment, in others, the engine continues to run, but the heat, coupled with cold weather will encase it in ice where the snow is present. (Survival 101: keep your engine running.)
The wheels may have kept turning, but it wasn't going anywhere--the pickup was likely 'high centered'.
He exited the vehicle with his hands in plain sight.
Considering the path he was following (no one is going to 'run away' in snow that deep), he took roughly the same path the others took when they came out of the vehicle. To the left of the vehicle, then parallel to the road briefly, then back toward the road.
Noting that the one LEO was nearly hit by the pickup as it went into the ditch, I'd guess that one was really adrenaline pumped by the time LaVoy got out of the truck.
The difficult part is that it is not possible to tell from the video. I noted an absence of muzzle flashes from any weapon in camera view throughout the incident. There were a couple of flash-bangs which can be seen, but are muted in intensity.
Was he shot by someone outside the frame? Or do the muzzle flashes just not show up?
I have little doubt the LEOs were pumped up, they'd been primed to expect a shootout, and LaVoy's comments about not being taken alive (not his exact words) did not help matters.
The account that LEOs took the pickup under fire (without return fire from the vehicle) and the evident impacts and snow puffs from that action is credible, even if colored by time dilation and what may well be some exaggeration of the number of shots or shooters.
In that case, it may be surprising that there were not more dead.
The statement from the occupant who said LaVoy was shot with his hands up may be the most damning.
Imho, surviving this whole 'standoff' would rely on making a protest, making your point, getting the press exposure and establishing places/means of networking with others sympathetic to the situation or who were or had faced similar situations, and then getting out without bloodshed, property damage, or serious confrontation.
That would take organization, press releases, etc. all prepped ahead of time and ready to go.
That would permit organizing more of a movement, having more material to indicate Federal Abuses, and doing so in such a manner as to keep the ability to lobby legislature and others for change in the status quo.
Getting your self killed does not accomplish that, and the inevitable Brady Material the FLEAs and LEOs develop for themselves will make sure your case will be presented in such a way that only those faced with similar problems will be sympathetic.
In the event of a next time, you will be on the defensive from the beginning, trying to differentiate yourself from the ones who had the "shootout" (shootup, more like), and using that valuable time and effort to prove you are not a "dangerous crackpot" or "domestic terrorist" instead of getting the word out about Federal Abuses of power.
Now, it will be an uphill battle because the "standoff" evolved into a "shootout" (awfully one-sided, I saw no exchange of fire) in the public mind.
If someone behind me is pulled over, (whether I know the party or not), that does not mean I am being pulled over, too.
Right handed with a cross draw shoulder rig
Same rig different day,
Classic cowboy rig
>
LOL! You can't be serious?! All he had to do was look out his rear view mirror and see two vehicles with emergency lights and lots of guys with guns.
They did not stop nor attempt to stop me. No roadblock either.
If the lead vehicle was intended to be stopped, there was plenty of time to pull a LEO vehicle around the stopped vehicle and make intent clear to the lead vehicle as well.
They proceeded, with no pursuit evident in the video.
So the two vehicles parked right behind Finicum’s truck with guns pointed at his vehicle did not show the intention to stop him? Then why did he come flying out of his truck when he ran into the roadblock? Why would he have his hands up if he had only had an innocent traffic accident?
Then why did he come flying out of his truck when he ran into the roadblock? Why would he have his hands up if he had only had an innocent traffic accident?
= = =
He figured it out fast.
Running into a roadblock hidden around a corner is not a traffic accident.
PS I think he took off, after waiting, to get to the next county and it’s sheriff. He speeded up pretty good.
Backing up to the earlier video:
He stopped when the vehicle behind him was stopped.
His vehicle was not approached, (at least not so you could see anyone coming up to the vehicle on camera, either on foot or in another vehicle). He stayed at that spot for a while with no forward motion of the vehicle.
He then proceeded down the road, slowly at first, then picking up speed. If the dashes painted on the road are an indication, he was doing roughly 55-60 when he came around the turn, no pursuit vehicle in evidence on the video. He appeared to increase his speed, but dual solid lines make that difficult to estimate. He came around the last turn before the roadblock.
When he saw the roadblock, he hit the brakes, they stayed on (as evidenced by the brake lights until the vehicle stopped), and it was evident he was not going to stop in time. He took the left ditch.
At that point, it seems pretty evident that the roadblock is meant for him, and that any promises of 'safe passage' to the meeting were bullsh*t.
With that many guns, the mission is to survive and sort it out, not shoot it out.
I have been in similar circumstances, even though I had committed no crime. You make no sudden movements, remain calm (not as easy as it sounds), and sort things out with the LEOs. I did and am still here to discuss it.
He, however was standing in deep snow which makes balance problematical, and his movements were likely in response to officer commands: things like "Hands up!", "Freeze!", "Move to the rear of the vehicle!" and "Step away from the vehicle!" all said at the same time.
Needless to say, it is impossible to simultaneously comply with conflicting orders.
Any hand or arm movements which are made involuntarily in an attempt to maintain balance can be misinterpreted easily by people who have been briefed to expect a shootout.
Without audio, it is impossible to say who said what or when the first shot was fired from the video.
It is pretty well documented that in such situations the first shot, fired intentionally or otherwise by either side, will prompt others to discharge their weapons, too.
Fair enough. What’s typical in urban situations? (I’m out in the countryside, intersections are often 1 mile apart or more.)
The Oregon situation looked pretty rural to me.
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