Posted on 12/24/2015 6:52:06 PM PST by kathsua
it is time that I disabuse myself of the notion that I can convince you, or anyone else for that matter of something that you collectively refuse to acknowledge.
Shoot to kill indeed.
Getting all huffy can’t disguise the fact that, in your view, judges have the right and authority to issue orders to murder Americans with no charges and no trial. And, finally, that’s the position Yeb took.
that is not my view, it is yours. you actually wrote that the governor of Florida ought to issue a shoot to kill order over this case. that you actually think that a wild west type shootout between US Marshalls and Florida state troopers could even vaguely be a solution to this issue is terrifying.
to think it is one thing, to write it on a public forum is quite another.
Jahi will never recover....she’s gone. The body, what’s left of it that hasn’t decomposed , is being kept ‘artificially’ alive in the ways which you have written.
There is no comparison to Terri....entirely different situation.
HeLa cells? I do not believe I have ever mentioned a specific cell line, nor have I ever grown that one.
When you get right down to it, the body is just an amalgamation of several different cell types. They behave according to the chemical signals they receive from their environment, interacting with the various cell components that are encoded in the DNA. Cells, even in groups of trillions, are insignificant. The only way those cells have any value is if they are supporting the life of a person. And there has not been a person in Jahi's body since December 2013, when she suffered a catastrophic and lethal brain injury.
Just because a body can be kept on a respirator and nutrients and hormones delivered through IV can keep the heart beating for a prolonged period of time after death does not mean that doing so is a good idea. It's ghoulish, in fact.
Regarding the MRI I linked in my previous post--you do not have to be a medical expert to see that the remaining brain tissue revealed in her MRI is fragmented and shrunken and that any part of the brain that is necessary to support life is long gone. The reason Dolan did not proceed with the lawsuit in 2014, and the reason I would be surprised if he actually goes ahead with a lawsuit now, is that any medical expert who takes one look at that MRI (or any other medical evidence he might produce) is going to point out everything I have already mentioned, and more. A judge will want independent experts to examine Jahi--Dolan is not going that route. He is after money, and nothing else.
Please do not insult our intelligence.
If you feel that trying to explain complicated technical concepts to people in a way that they can understand is "insulting your intelligence," then so be it. When I write professionally, I actually tone down the technical language a lot more than I do here--members of Congress might have to read it.
You made definitive statements two years ago.
I do not know what statements you are referring to. I looked over the posts that you pinged to me, and some of your other posts, and did not see these statements. In one of your posts (not addressed to me), I did see one statement that I had quoted from a blog written by an MD, who would know more than I about neurological issues and brain anatomy--perhaps you mistook that quote for something I said about the topic? In any case, I am limited to speaking from my knowledge of the subject, mostly from the point of view of the biochemistry. As I said before, I have been following this case intently. If anything new about it turns up, I will find out and that new knowledge will be incorporated into future discussions.
I'd fail you on your orals if you tried to avoid a question as you are here.
The interesting thing about the oral examination that all graduate students at my alma mater had to take in order to progress to PhD candidate is that whether the student answered the question "correctly" was not as important as how the student answered the question. Whatever the student's answer, he or she had to be able to provide evidence and logic to support it. To this day, I always support my thoughts on a topic with as much evidence as I can find, coupled with logical extrapolation from the known facts. I might not present all of my evidence and reasoning, but I *always* go through the process of developing the answer as thoroughly as I can. This is why it can take me hours to compose a single post... and why I so often end up going to work late, after making the mistake of thinking that I'll just post one little comment on FR.
Crazy flights of fancy that she is secretly buried etc... Is just that. Nutty and unfounded.
It is a natural suspicion. I see a money-grubbing lawyer--and while I hate to speak badly of a grieving family, they strike me as money-grubbing, as well. Someone who is part of this saga posts on the Facebook page infrequently, and usually the content is rather bland: a Christmas prayer today, a new link to an old video on Dec 8. What I do NOT see is any kind of substantive update on Jahi's condition posted there. If she were really improving, wouldn't evidence be posted? If she were not dead, but vegetative like Terry Schindler, with a corresponding minimum level of consciousness, wouldn't they post videos of her responding to actual items in her environment, like Terry Schindler did? In this case, what they don't post is much more informative than what they do post. They have not posted any verifiable recent photos or videos. No one outside of the family and their lawyer knows what is really going on with Jahi's corpse--so the suspicion that they may have already buried her is natural.
A pipsqueak probate judge issues an order for a citizen of Florida to be murdered, and the governor does nothing. The woman dies an excruciating, hideous, bleeding death by dehydration.
THIS you call an “issue.”
It was not an “issue.” It was a murder, practically in broad daylight, and the governor hid under his desk.
There would not have been a shootout, because the cops who were participating in the murder knew they were participating in a murder. But a shootout would have been preferable to the absolute lawlessness that prevailed in this case.
Your argument is the same argument that tyrants always make: “Resist my murders and other crimes, and you are an anarchist!”
lets clear the field a bit. I totally agree that Terry Schiavo should not have gone through any of the nonsense perpetrated by an out of control husband, judge and court. she ought have been left alone for God to decide her fate. I believe Jeb did what he could given the murderous mob assailing everyone. you disagree which is your wont. one should respect that. about the anarchist business,
I thought about that and am very happy that you brought it up.
seems bright minds think alike.
Just read of George Pickering of Texas who was in coma. Doctors said he was brain dead and there was no hope. They wanted to take him off life support. His mother agreed. But father did not and took a gun to prevent the doctors from removing it. After a long standoff with police, it turned out George suddenly showed signs of life. He totally recovered. The doctors were wrong. Nevertheless the father was sent to jail. Nothing was done to the doctors.
There is no comparison to Terri....entirely different situation.
Exactly. I am very much pro-life... but there must be life there for me to be "pro" about it. Terri was a very alive, but disabled, young woman who deserved to live until the natural end of her days.
Did the doctors really say he was brain dead? Or did they actually say he was comatose, vegetative, or in one of the other minimally conscious but alive states, and the news media reported it as "brain dead" for dramatic effect?
There is a world of difference between "dead" and any state that afflicts the living. A dead brain no more jumps back to life than the dead steak you are about to have for dinner.
And, for the record, I am glad that the father of George Pickering did not take the diagnosis of "irreversible" coma to heart and allow life support to be discontinued. Coma patients have been known to wake up even after years. It seems that the brain does have some regenerative capability.
“perhaps you mistook that quote for something I said about the topic?”
You are trying to cop out this way?
You posted specific things that would happen if she were brain dead.
They did not happen.
A retraction is in order.
“HeLa cells? I do not believe I have ever mentioned a specific cell line, nor have I ever grown that one.”
See post 38 on the following thread
Hospital Agrees to Let Family Move Jahi McMath to New Medical Facility
Life News ^ | Steven Ertelt
Posted on January 5, 2014 at 6:46:51 PM PST by Morgana
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3108741/posts?page=38#38
Quote from that post using HelLa cells an an analogy to Jahi McMath’s condition:
As a scientist, I have worked with cell lines removed, in some cases, from dead humans or animals. The cell lines will live indefinitely as long as they are kept warm, fed, and sterile, and provided with sufficient carbon dioxide. The Hela cell line was taken from a woman who died in the early 1950s. The cells are alive, but she is not.
This little girl, Jahi, died on Dec. 12. What is going on now is more fitting to a Steven King novel than real life. The judge who has allowed the family to keep her corpse ventilated is irresponsible.
I saw 3 to 4 news reports, and they said he was diagnosed brain dead.
Our system is such that if a doctor admits a mistake, it’s likely an ambulance chaser will show up and make him wished he hadn’t.
Ah, I see. Context is everything. I have not grown HeLa cells, but they are a great example of how a tissue can be taken from a living (or dead) person and maintained indefinitely as long as it is provided basic survival needs, i.e., food, oxygen, warmth, and CO2. But, no matter how long those cells are maintained and continue to live, the continued survival of the tissue is completely independent of the survival of the person. In Jahi's case, the cells were not removed from her body, but are cultured within the body through ventilation, externally supplied heat sources, and nutrient solutions inserted through an IV. The fact that the cells are kept alive does not mean that Jahi is alive, because that person died back in December, 2013.
We dealt with this with our precious daughter.
3 physicians confirmed the checklist and signed the declaration.
I can say - if there was any doubt at all - we would have erred on the side of life.
Why? Because if anyone is going to hold onto a sliver of hope - it will be the parents.
And maybe at present it appears nothing can be done for these patients.
Yet we read of new cases and studies all the time - they are finding there is more “there” in the brain than previously thought.
New studies - new therapies - new technology.
Hope
Then my supposition is most likely correct, and the reporters were reporting a coma (or vegetative state, locked-in syndrome, whatever) as brain dead when it is not. I can guarantee that the diagnosis was not brain dead, because death is an irreversible condition.
You cannot discount the possibility that the reporters of that story have an ulterior motive in misreporting the real diagnosis. Remember that many reporters fantasize about a "utopia" in which no one raises an eyebrow when "useless eaters" are killed off--and purposely confounding brain death and brain injury advances their agenda. It's much like they report on illegal aliens as if they are ordinary immigrants--by muddling the issue, they advance their agenda.
You are actually doubling down in your inane analogy?
I also recommend a refresher course in cell culture and in basic A&P to address your difficulty in understanding the difference between cells and tissue.
Look, you keep avoiding the issue which is it has been two years and by now according to you and others her body ought to have fully rotted away.
You were wrong.
Thank you for this. It helps me understand. I am sadly watching my parents’ brains, so beautiful, so smart, so kind and good, deteriorate. I know the last to go are the animal functions like movement, then breathing, and heartbeat.
I wish those parents would let ther daughter go. Or her body. I now see that this is not a Terri Schiavo case.
You are trying to cop out this way?
You posted specific things that would happen if she were brain dead.
They did not happen.
A retraction is in order.
Exactly what have I said that needs retraction? If I have said something that is scientifically and evidentiarily wrong, please point it out. So far, you have not pointed out any specific mistake or misstatement on my part; you just seem to want to argue.
The general process of decay after a body dies is fairly well understood. The process alters under various conditions; obviously, the condition of keeping a corpse hooked up to a respirator and pumping nutrients and hormones into it has changed the course of the natural process. Don't get me wrong--certain things that happen in a dead body have already happened in Jahi's body and by now--assuming the body is still hooked to machines--have probably reached some sort of stop point due to the unusual circumstances. The thing I find most puzzling is the lack of microbial activity, since the guts are normally full of bacteria and fungi that eagerly spread throughout the body once death has occurred. Maybe the IVs are also pumping antibiotics into her body. I don't know.
Everything I speculate about the state of the body at this point is purely hypothetical, since I have no way of knowing that the body is still being maintained on machines. Perhaps it is theoretically possible for a corpse to be maintained on machines for this long, but it is unprecedented.
Honestly, at this point, the situation looks like a pure scam, and the lawyer is the ringleader of it. I would be surprised if he really files a lawsuit, since doing so would require providing medical evidence of the public claims--and he can't do that, since there is none. If there were evidence that Jahi is actually alive and comatose rather than brain dead, he would have gone ahead with the lawsuit in October, 2014, when he was making public claims that the MRI shows functional brain tissue. The fact that he did not actually file a lawsuit back then to overturn the death declaration, and is now bringing up the subject again, says volumes about what is really going on. My take on the current talk of a lawsuit is that donations have been drying up, and this is a way to get publicity that will make the money flow again.
The big question now is where is Jahi's body, and in what state is it?
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