The Ghastly Shadow of Munich

Townhall.com ^ | April 2, 2015 | Victor Davis Hanson

[Sherman Logan]

Sorry, had another thought.

People are still drawing different conclusions even about the western failure to stand up to Hitler at Munich. Pat Buchanan has made somewhat of a cottage industry out of WWII being pretty much entirely the fault of the West, and especially Churchill.

It’s a pretty stupid cottage industry, IMO, but he sure works at it.

Most of the criticisms of western leaders are of the same variety as those who think we “should have” just kept going after Germany collapsed, invading USSR and destroying Communism. That counter-factual analysis is based on geopolitical theories that just ignore the real facts. Such as the enormously obvious one that the citizens of the Allies, and quite probably their armies, would simply have refused to obey. If FDR or Truman had tried any such thing, they would have quickly been impeached, or at minimum had funding cut off.

Similarly, IF Britain and France had been different countries in 1938, their leaders would have had options that included (possibly) facing Hitler down. Since they weren’t different countries, those leaders didn’t have those options. BTW, for the most part they didn’t have those options in earlier years, either.

IOW, IF your aunt had balls, she’d be your uncle. But since she doesn’t, she’s still your aunt.

[SunkenCiv]

"Death to America!"

[SJackson]

Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

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[HenpeckedCon]

“Agreed. There is considerable question whether Chamberlain refusing a treaty to Hitler would have avoided the bloodbath of WWII or just started it a year early. In which case he might be remembered as the warmonger who refused reasonable accomodations that might have prevented war.”

The German Wehrmacht was not ready to take on Czechoslovakia, France and England. The Germans would have got a very bloody nose invading Czechoslovakia. Their border defenses and their excellent army would have wiped out many Wehrmacht divisions. The German generals said as much when they inspected the Czech defenses after France and England betrayed her at Munich. That's a fact.

[Peter Libra]

It is a waste of time for me trying to reason regarding Neville Chamberlain and Munich. The only thing I offer is the utter exhaustion of my native country Britain after WW1. 900,000 dead. 160,000 war widows. The gold reserves gone, replaced by paper money. The shell shocked ex soldiers, the amputees, the survivors of gas attacks.

Enough said!

[dfwgator]

“You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war.” - Churchill to Chamberlain after Munich, and you had to know deep down Chamberlain knew Churchill was right.

[Peter Libra]

I have perused your comments and do agree. I will repeat what you will already know, but it might escape others. The ultimatum to Herr Hitler was delivered by Neville Chamberlain. This was to withdraw his troops from Poland. Hitler never believed that Chamberlain would declare war.

I remember.

I will never know in my lifetime just how close an agreement could have been fashioned. True, Hitler was a liar and had lied twice. Pretty hard to judge whether the whole thing could have been avoided.

That is another story.

[AnalogReigns]

And of course,

[gr8eman]

My case study was "Why did Hess fly to Scotland to try to broker a deal?" Germany and England were in an all out war yet the Nazis were still trying to cut a deal. The reason is that Hitler wasn;t so clueless to realize that he couldn't win a two front war, as six weeks after Hess flew to Scotland, Operation Barbarossa was set.

Hitler did have reasonable issues as to the Sudeten Germans and Danzig, but instead of engaging in diplomacy, even at knifepoint, he went postal.

Chamberlain was not a coward or a pu$$y. He followed the political line that was shared by the King, Lord Fairfax, and the upper classes of which Lord Hamilton, the target of Hess' mission, were toeing.

I admit that I bought into this perversion of history and it is purely ignorant. The only more egregious perversions are by the Churchill haters, who to this day rewrite history to slander him for whatever reason!

[Peter Libra]

I have carefully noted your comments on the events that lead to the irrecoverable decision to promote the war. One point of view of others,you have stated. This view does not put Winston Churchill in a favourable light. It is easy for wishful thinking and I have engaged in it myself. So much misinformation exists. Chamberlain's statement that "Hitler has missed the bus" was construed to mean the Germans were willing to negotiate a cease in hostilities. I bought into it.

The statement was made to mean that had Hitler have attacked Britain in 1938, he would have had an immediate success. Churchill was kind enough to deliver a eulogy a few days after Chamberlain's death in 1940. He was a broken man because of the perfidy of Hitler.

Excuse the ramble and I shall have to do more reading of Hess and his flight.

[DuncanWaring]

The actual Churchill quote, even more relevant:

“You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war.”

[gr8eman]

The Nazi's theory of lebensraum was similar to “liberal” professor's guiding ideologies that clash with realities of the real world when put in practice. Lebensraum prompted hitler to invade Austria, Poland, etc. without objective consideration of the consequences. From what I have studied, the British upper class resented Churchill because he wasn't a socialist/communist, was 10 times smarter than most of them, and showed them how real leaders get it done. Watch the Brit series "WWII in Colour", and they take a cheap shot at Churchill claiming that he knew about the concentration camps and did nothing! These are the same people letting the muzzies run rampant in Britain today!

[Joe Brower]

As expected, Obama is ramming through a non-deal just to have some semblance of a foriegn-policy "legacy".

I would not be surprised if Israel takes it upon itself to act alone, as it has in the past.

[Squantos]

Hopefully surgical and not leave any traces shy of a few smoking holes in the enemy, its leadership and ability to do damage via diplomatic deception or delivery of WMD’s ..... proactive offense is a valid defense . Hit “all” threats to your people Bibi....ALL of em....same time.

my opinion ....