Meet the fast-charging, affordable ‘future’ car that Elon Musk hates

“Are you deliberately ignoring the herd of elephants in that room? Electricity for transportation should carry the appropriate taxes to support our highways. It is the wealthier segment that drives the toys that are skipping out on this.”

We pay around 42¢ per gallon in taxes, which does not explain the difference.

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=10&t=10

“In addition, the electric grid is having to be upgraded at tremendous cost to permit this excess.”

No it isn't. The vast, vast majority of electric car charging happens at night when there is a couple hundred gigawatts of unused grid capacity. All electric cars come with a “delayed charging” setting so that you can program it to not start charging until the middle of the night. “Time-of-use” electricity plans are becoming more common these days that offer discounted rates at night because of all the unused capacity at that time.

That seems reasonable.

I used to work at a large manufacturing plant here in Indiana. We were one of the top 4 users when it came to sucking juice. Hot afternoons in the summer we were always on call from the utility to taper usage as needed.

.
>>”No it isn’t. The vast, vast majority of electric car charging happens at night when there is a couple hundred gigawatts of unused grid capacity” <<

Not so at all!

The vast majority is done during the work day, between when employees arrive and depart.

Power companies, counties, states, all provide card-lok charging stations for electric cars. Few people are willing to pay the $4000 installation cost for a home charger.

“Not so at all! The vast majority is done during the work day, between when employees arrive and depart. Power companies, counties, states, all provide card-lok charging stations for electric cars. Few people are willing to pay the $4000 installation cost for a home charger.”

Wow, that is completely false! There was an article a few months ago about how most Chevy Volt owners just use a standard 120 V household outlet to charge overnight. That is because you can fully charge the car in 10 hours using such an outlet, even less if you didn't use the entire 40 mile range the day before. (78% of Americans drive less than 40 miles a day to and from work, and 51% drive less than 20 miles^[1], so this is likely.)

Furthermore, your $4,000 price for 240 V home chargers is total baloney. Prices are between $500 and $1,000.

The fact is, almost all charging is done at night, in people's garages, when there is no strain on the grid.

.
The price of the hardware for the standard car charger is $1100.

Installation depends on how far from the branch panel it has to be run. The permit is usually $1500 or more. $4000 is about average for the total.

.

“The price of the hardware for the standard car charger is $1100. Installation depends on how far from the branch panel it has to be run. The permit is usually $1500 or more. $4000 is about average for the total.”

What state are you in? I've never heard of a four-digit permit cost. Can you provide a link or any evidence to back this "$1500 or more" figure up?

It seems like you are trying hard to use worst case numbers. The link I provided (here it is again) had prices for various garage chargers all of which are between $450 and $1,000 (none of them are $1,100). As far as installation, if your house was built in the last 30 years then it should only cost around $200.

.
In California, there is no such thing as a bldg permit for less than $1200 that I have ever encountered.

.

Predicting against scientific advances just because it can’t currently be figured out is a losing strategy 100% of the time.

WGAF what Tesla is doing....without huge subsidies Tesla would be doing nothing...

Tesla is not economically viable...remove the subsidies it gets and the whole thing collapses.

And the fact that they have a longer range battery still does not confront the primary limitation of batteries...

Batteries are never 100% efficient-—they never and can never put out the amount of energy that is put in. And battery efficiency degrades from the very first charge-discharge cycle. It will always take more and more energy input for the same amount of output.

And batteries die...the greatest determining factor of its’ lifespan being the number of charge-discharge cycles-—IOW, the more you use it the shorter its’ lifespan. That will NEVER change...again, basic battery physics.

And the cost of replacing that battery...1/4 or more than the entire cost of the car....how can that ever compete on any scale with a modern internal combustion engine?

And of course none of this includes the cost of disposal/recycling of the batteries....nor the cumulative amount of resources spent on EV battery R&D, most of which is heavily subsidized without the prospect of any return on that money spent anywhere on the horizon...

Why is it so hard to accept that the ICE is by far the most efficient form of transportation energy, and will be for the foreseeable future?

Why is it so hard to accept that the ICE is by far the most efficient form of transportation energy,
...............
True now. Except the “by far” part is steadily shrinking.

and will be for the foreseeable future?
.................
Less true. An article of faith—unless the foreseeable future is less than three years or so. If this is a tough notion and you need to see in order to believe—then visit Reno Nevada where the Tesla battery gigafactory is now ahead of schedule. Tesla now figures it will start production next year. That will cut the cost of batteries in half.

“In California, there is no such thing as a bldg permit for less than $1200 that I have ever encountered.”

Okay, so you were making it up. That is the problem with debates like this, so many people have heard made up numbers designed to paint EVs in the worst light possible. Here is what charger permits actually cost in California:

“In California, permit costs for home EVSE installations vary widely – the average permit cost is about $200, but permits can range from $50 - $600.”

http://driveclean.ca.gov/pev/Costs/Charging_Equipment.php

“Batteries are never 100% efficient-—they never and can never put out the amount of energy that is put in.”

Yes, but no mechanical system in the world is 100% efficient, so you are creating a straw man. Battery efficiencies are in the high 90s, so this is a not a real world issue.

With the cost of electricity being equivalent to around a dollar a gallon, you save money without needing to be absolutely 100% efficient.

“And battery efficiency degrades from the very first charge-discharge cycle. It will always take more and more energy input for the same amount of output. And batteries die...the greatest determining factor of its’ lifespan being the number of charge-discharge cycles-—IOW, the more you use it the shorter its’ lifespan. That will NEVER change...again, basic battery physics. And the cost of replacing that battery...1/4 or more than the entire cost of the car....how can that ever compete on any scale with a modern internal combustion engine?”

These aren't your smartphone batteries. From an article from a couple of weeks ago:

“Based on 84 data points from the 85-kWh version of the Model S and six from 60-kWh cars, the study concludes that the Model S will retain about 94 percent of its capacity after 50,000 miles, with losses thereafter shrinking to about 1 percent per 30,000 miles. That means that after 100,000 miles, the typical Model S is projected to retain about 92 percent of its battery capacity and range.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3258415/posts

92% after 100,000 miles means that all the fear-mongering about EV battery life was way overblown.

“And of course none of this includes the cost of disposal/recycling of the batteries...”

These batteries are too valuable to be thrown away, even when they have lost 30% of their capacity and are no longer suitable for automobile use. There are programs set up to reuse these batteries for home electricity storage. Tesla also has a recycling program in place. And the Prius battery, for example, is completely recycled:

“Forget those fears that hybrid and electric vehicles will result in landfills full of dead batteries. When Toyota hybrid battery packs reach the end of their lives, every piece is recycled. And it's all because of a program launched a year ago by Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. and its dealers.”

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120102/RETAIL07/301029980/1147

“Why is it so hard to accept that the ICE is by far the most efficient form of transportation energy, and will be for the foreseeable future?”

With electricity costing around a dollar a gallon equivalent, and battery prices being cut in half every few years, your statement is not based on the reality of the situation.