Posted on 09/30/2014 4:41:46 AM PDT by Timber Rattler
Christian persecution...it’s here.
flawed analogy, but at least you were self rightous about it.
the cake is honoring the fornication - both hetero and homo sexual fornication. You must have failed logic.
if not, you got a pass.
Besides, these lesbians did NOT WANT A CHRISTIAN RUN BAKERY TO BAKE THEM A CAKE.....THEY WANTED A CHRISTIAN BAKER TO TELL THEM NO SO THEY COULD HARASS AND EMBARRASS THEM. It is NEVER okay to be naive and foolish in the name of principle. Never.
So so so true, but that doesn't mean we have to foolishly step right in it to make it easier.
Couldn’t agree more. For a number of reasons, we won’t fight back.
If they were Muslim, they would be celebrated for imposing their religious beliefs on their customers and anybody complaining about it would be intolerant and hateful. Diversity is great unless you are a white Christian.
I’m sure you don’t need my help but I thought this would be a good place to interject a few of my own thoughts.
If these dykes went to the baker to buy a loaf of bread, they might say we need that bread to live so we can perform our unnatural and immoral act. Would Jesus demand they not be sold bread or anything else they may need to survive and continue in their sin? If the standard is that we may not enable sinners to survive to engage in their sins, we would all be dead.
Your high level of arrogance appears to have an inverse relationship with your intelligence. How about you pipe down and let the grownups talk?
You do not accept it. Well great. But this is not about you. This is about them. They thought they were sinning by taking this job, so that's the end of it, and strategic considerations don't come in to play.
I'm Catholic and we have a very developed moral theology on what constitutes cooperation in a sin. But if you don't, and you truly believe in the ability of the Holy Ghost to convict the individual, then at least give them their due to make that call.
Bingo.
“Holy Matrimony” cakes wouldn’t get you very far. In any big city there are dozens, if not scores, of liberal synagogues and protestant churches who will happily marry a gay couple, calling it Holy Matrimony all down the line. Refusing them a cake moves you from the frying pan of anti-gay discrimination to the fire of religious discrimination.
What makes this so very frustrating is watching so many people try to cobble together moral theology from their own heads, as if there was no existing Christian tradition on what exactly constituted cooperation in sin.
That and seeing the children of the Reformation, who put such a premium on having the Scriptures speak to the individual directly, upbraid a fellow Christian for taking a stance that they find unstrategic.
Reading some of your other replies though - I suppose this was the best I could expect.
As I pointed out, the government would surely support other bakeries who refused to provide goods to someone who the government considers with less favor than the women in this case. Its a great example of some people being more equal than others. A bakery should be able to turn down whoever it wants, but that is not the direction our government and society has taken.
As to the wisdom of expressing principles vs. going along to get along, that is one of the great challenges of life. We have great respect for those who make the difficult choices to go against the prevailing powers, they are honored as heroes throughout history. Those who choose to do the same thing quietly, or play along with those in power often aren't seen in the same light.
Perhaps you just answered your own question. They need the bread "to live". Is living a sin? No. Then sell them the bread.
Next day two lesbians want bread "to use at their 'wedding'". Is this "wedding" a sin? Yes. It is a sacrilegious defiling of Holy Matrimony. Then no bread.
Heck - I find myself more in agreement with the 'Christian Right' than many of our fellow 'liberal' (aka heterodox) Catholics.
Yes -we share a common history with non-Catholics so referring back to Aquinas shouldn't be met with a blank stare. None of these dilemmas are new- they've all been addressed in the past and we can and should learn from them.
And the Bible does separate sins. Very frustrating.
Perhaps instead of Thomas More I should have referred to Martin Luther. I completely disagree with what he did, but in fairness, he did it out of conscience and I can respect that.
So if you rented a room in your home or ran a bed and breakfast you'd be tickled Rainbow to have Homosexual couples living in your home huh? Remember they now according to Oregon have that right. But why stop there why not the churches too? They are taking them over as well.
Jesus Christ was preaching to and ministering to sinners. He was hardest on the church leaders. He was not an enabler saying do as you will and sin is fine. He forgave when it was asked for. He also said Go and sin no more which meant changing ones life turning away from wrong.
Put perhaps you should read some of Paul's teachings. If the bakers did not know the couple was homosexual and were simply asked for a cake it's no sin or wrong. However if asked to do something to enable someones sin such as a sinful or unholy act or ritual yes it is in fact condemned and wrong in The Bible. Do not knowingly eat meat offered to idols. What do you think that means? Do not do acts that may cause someone to fall. Paul wrote that as well. Those two off the top of my head cover this situation clearly.
The couples GOD given rights were violated and their lives destroyed as well as their business. The government and judges of the state of Oregon who oppose the bakers, allowing this to happen, and make demands against their moral conscience before GOD, should be rounded up and ran out of town on a rail. People should spit when such as they are seen and turn away. They are Tyrants. they seek to destroy.
In a more rational time in our nation no judge or elected official would have allowed this. Today the bakery tomorrow the church. The unholy standing in the pulpit preaching Satan's lies. No church would be able to fire such a person under these laws. Look at how many churches of today that have already fallen away calling good evil and evil good. They have put an abomination before GOD's alter. They stand where they should not be. Such acts in history have brought desolation on those who did not turn away. What is real sad is our nations leaders including Republicans pander to the homosexual activist groups now.
Homosexuals are not pushing this to say can't we all just get along. That isn't their agenda at all. No indeed they are forcing a takeover. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexual men demanding Lot turn over his guest to them for sex. Never underestimate Satan's disciples agenda. Don't be deceived.
A person can pray that the hearts of homosexuals change and the homosexuals turn from their ways of destruction to themselves and others. As Christians or Jews we should pray for sinners to repent. Some groups like Focus on The Family have ministries to try and help homosexuals out of that lifestyle. That doesn't by any stretch though mean we should enable them in any manner that points to acceptance of their lifestyle.
Homosexuals have made just about every aspect of life theirs. They have even turned GOD's reminder to mankind he would not flood the world again into their flag. Remember it is Satan who tries to imitate GOD and mislead. The bakery owners need support. You may be next.
I think you are missing the point others are trying to make because even this response from you creates a ridiculously impractical burden. (Are you going to use my product to commit a sin?)
Do we all agree the law is unjust? I think we do but it was known this is the law, that this is a state run by evil people, probably empowered by mostly indifferent or gullible people. People who choose to live in such a state or who refuse to move when it changes, have made their choice and must either accept the consequences or comply with the law. They can show contempt other ways, but this couple chose not to.
I hope they do get help and prevail in court, but that is uncertain.
This whole issue about what constitutes enabling sinners to sin is really a different issue. You are right, they did what their conscience dictated, but they should also be prepared to face the consequences, or fight them if that was their intent.
Money in the offering plate? ... Shirley you’re spinnin’ us, right? Kiss evil’s butt so you can put money in the offering plate? Do you alert the media before depositing?
It’s actually extremely sensible and practical.
If my neighbor asks to borrow a butcher knife I should hand it over it freely. I have no reason to suspect he has any nefarious plans for it, and if he does, certainly I couldn’t have known.
The minute he tells me he wants to borrow it because he is going to off his wife, that’s when I should refuse.
If two women came into the bakery and asked for a generic cake (no names, no two “brides” on top), I would have to give them the benefit of the doubt and bake the cake. The second they tell me it is used for a scandalous purpose I have to say no.
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