Posted on 09/18/2014 5:28:00 AM PDT by thackney
Maybe not, but I asked what your solution is....I have a feeling you have no interest at all in the concept of inexpensive energy costs.
It would only move the dollar paid to foreign nations.
Why not? Why would we buy foreign gasoline and diesel if we made all we could use right here?
Oil well are not magical machines that produce the same amount forever. It takes constant inflow of investment to keep our production from dropping.
I never suggested they were, but what does that have to do with domestic refining capacity and the retention of finished product?
Banning exports will not lower prices. There are two curves in economics.
Yes, and you've already pointed out that those parameters no longer apply since there is a so-called "global market" All that has been accomplished with the higher prices is the depression of the demand side of the equation.
That may not be a bad thing, but there is no corresponding increase in supply (and lower cost) to reward consumers for being more efficient.
Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with fueling tractors, individuals driving to work, transporting goods to markets.
Consumer prices are up as a result...Wages are not.
We should either "trade" our "expensive light crude" directly for gasoline and diesel; or ban the export of finished product.
The US already produces more refined product than we use ourselves. It isn't all gasoline, some of it is refinery "leftovers" like residual oil or petroleum coke. But if we force additional imports of refined products, or we ban exports of refined products, while we are already producing more than we use, it will shut down US refineries. Those non-US purchasers will need to find someone else to supply the products they have been purchasing from us. It will shut down US jobs and send jobs to other countries.
My suggestion, less government interference in the market. It NEVER helps and always hurts.
And as your for your feeling about my interest, I provide service not only to oil/gas production, but in the major consumers like refineries, petrochemical plants. Anything that grows the market, like lower prices which builds more demand and then more production, refineries and petrochem, benefits me. I don't get paid a percentage of the oil price. But I do get hired for overtime when the market grows.
It would only move the dollar paid to foreign nations.
Why not? Why would we buy foreign gasoline and diesel if we made all we could use right here?
We already produce more than we use. You want to take away those foreign markets from our domestic suppliers. Those foreign buyers will now buy from non US suppliers.
Oil well are not magical machines that produce the same amount forever. It takes constant inflow of investment to keep our production from dropping.
I never suggested they were, but what does that have to do with domestic refining capacity and the retention of finished product?
You are mixing two different topic, production and export of our oil, and the refining. Banning exports of either, reduces investment in this country.
, and you've already pointed out that those parameters no longer apply since there is a so-called "global market"
Those parameters certainly do apply. You don't understand what I wrote.
All that has been accomplished with the higher prices is the depression of the demand side of the equation.
All??? You have not read about the large increase of US oil production???
but there is no corresponding increase in supply (and lower cost) to reward consumers for being more efficient.
It appear you imagine if the US production had not increased, prices would not have greatly risen. If that is your belief, you are mistaken.
Your solution for lower fuel prices?
Less government interference. Less government regulation of picking winners and losers.
You are mixing two different topic, production and export of our oil, and the refining.
No, you are. Those are your words not mine. I never made that comment. And once again...what does production have to do with domestic refining capacity and the retention of finished product?
We already produce more than we use.
I understand that.
You want to take away those foreign markets from our domestic suppliers. Those foreign buyers will now buy from non US suppliers.
Yes, with foreign "global demand" driving up the price for US consumers. Why should we pay the same price and give away our treasure to "foreign buyers"?
Those parameters certainly do apply. You don't understand what I wrote.
I certainly do understand. I once asked you directly why gasoline prices don't follow the lower oil prices as they once did. You replied the gasoline prices were subject to the global demand.
Why should we be OK with that?
All??? You have not read about the large increase of US oil production???
Yes, and that makes it look even more crooked. With depressed demand and increased supply, prices are supposed to go down. Econ 101 is not out the window.
It appear you imagine if the US production had not increased, prices would not have greatly risen. If that is your belief, you are mistaken.
No, I understand fully well that the speculators have no interest in anything but their pocketbooks. Certainly there is no mechanism nor desire in the industry for lowering domestic fuel costs.
Correction:
Econ 101 is NOW out the window.
We should either "trade" our "expensive light crude" directly for gasoline and diesel; or ban the export of finished product.
- - - - -
We already produce more than we use.
I understand that.
Then you understand banning exports means shutting down US refineries currently operating?
Yes, with foreign "global demand" driving up the price for US consumers. Why should we pay the same price and give away our treasure to "foreign buyers"?
You can try to ignore global demand, but economics is not going to ignore it in a fungible market. If you try to use government to pick who private industry is allowed to sell to, you are going to drive that investment to other nations.
I once asked you directly why gasoline prices don't follow the lower oil prices as they once did. You replied the gasoline prices were subject to the global demand.
Oil and gas are both priced with demand and supply. The US gasoline price, and the US oil price have been slowly, slightly trending lower.
With depressed demand and increased supply, prices are supposed to go down. Econ 101 is not out the window.
You are still ignoring most of the market, outside the US. We still import a large amount of oil, even if it is less than we used to import. We are tied to the global market.
Certainly there is no mechanism nor desire in the industry for lowering domestic fuel costs.
If that were true, why do we ever see any drop in price for any duration?
False. What you seem to be ignoring is government regulations, OPEC, trade bans, fungible products, etc all drive the economic curves. They impact the supply and demand curves. When you try to only consider a subset of the market, ignore the impacts on that market, you reach the false conclusion that it doesn't apply.
What's wrong with that?
>> there is no mechanism nor desire in the industry for lowering domestic fuel costs <<
....If that were true, why do we ever see any drop in price for any duration?
We haven't. (slowly, slightly trending lower)
So, how much is gas in Saudi Arabia?
Which is exactly what throws Econ 101 out the window.
When you try to only consider a subset of the market.
The only "subset" that really matters is the one most of us are in...the American private sector.
I'll state this as a fact, not just my opinion:
The highly productive US economy relies on the availability of inexpensive and abundant energy....We don't have that.
By the way, I forgot to mention. Over 100 million Americans are now not driving to work.
I wonder if that has anything to do with depressed demand...Ya think!
We already refine more than we use. (again and again...)
If we bring in more gasoline than we use, we shut down US refineries.
...If that were true, why do we ever see any drop in price for any duration?
We haven't. (slowly, slightly trending lower)
We have.
AAA: Labor Day gas prices expected to reach 4-year low
http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=278693
Gasoline in Saudi Arabia is subsidized by the government. Do you want the US government to use tax dollars to subsidize selected products? Were you happy with the ethanol subsidy?
I was taught in economics that supply and demand curves respond to impacts in the market. Just because those impacts are not desired by the consumer doesn't make them magically go away.
The only "subset" that really matters is the one most of us are in...the American private sector.
You want want government regulation to tell private industry who they can sell their product? And the impact on the private industry after that regulation?
I'll repeat from above.
Ban the export of wheat this year and wheat prices will drop, this harvest. But don't expect the farmers to plant the same amount of wheat next year, and the prices are going to skyrocket and for longer than a single season. The oil is the same, but a longer time frame.
The highly productive US economy relies on the availability of inexpensive and abundant energy....We don't have that.
Adding more government regulations, more restrictions on buying, selling, etc are going to make it worse. I find it amazing that any conservative doesn't understand more government interference hurts prices in the long run.
So we should ban exports of refined products, shut down some US refineries and you think that will help?
So we should ban exports of refined products, shut down some US refineries and you think that will help?
Hell NO!
But just like domestic "big-pharma"...who gives deep discounts to socialist countries, and gouges US patients on their prescriptions, to subsidize the discounts, it should be the other way around.
I don't see any "free market parameters" at work in that example.
If we're such a big-@$$ player in the "global market" of liquid fuels, then the petroleum sector should be able to voluntarily set the "global prices" a little higher, and give domestic sales a discount.
Additionally, domestic speculators should be required to be equipped with physical storage capability equal to the barrels of a commodity they are allowed to leverage via derivatives.
But none of that is going to happen...Is it!
Why should American fuel consumers be satisfied with the "way it is"?
No, I want something done by the markets to use a slightly inflated export PPB, to subsidize a discount for domestic consumption.
Were you happy with the ethanol subsidy?
No, let it succeed or fail on its own. It's a phony market. I'd rather have unleaded regular available at the pump.
What this article is was describing was exporting our expensive light oil while continuing to import cheaper, heavier oil, keeping the trade advantage to the US.
We still import import 7 million barrels a day of crude oil from other countries. So you want our domestic producers to sell for less than we pay for imports? You want more money going to OPEC and less to American producers? How long do you think that would keep investment for oil production up in this country?
You seem to want those willing to invest and take the risk to sell to you cheaper than market prices. And do that why? If you think there is so much money to be made, invest in those companies.
Additionally, domestic speculators should be required to be equipped with physical storage capability equal to the barrels of a commodity they are allowed to leverage via derivatives.
So you want to put additional requirements, by the government I imagine, that to trade on the New York Commodities Exchange, they have to get special permits proving they actually take physical delivery of oil? You want to limit trading on this one market, to only oil refineries and terminals? Are you going to apply this to all commodities on the exchange, or is the government doing more special interest work treating industries differently? And do you think this would do any different than move the trading to the other markets around the world already trading in oil?
Why should American fuel consumers be satisfied with the "way it is"?
There is a ~35¢/gal difference in the wholesale price of gasoline compared to our WTI crude oil price. Refineries are not making a fortune. You may not be happy, but all your suggestions would only lead to making US gasoline prices higher, not lower.
More government regulation is not the answer. Less interference, less requirements for different recipes, less restriction for those willing to produce, those are ways to lower prices. Not more government selecting who can sell to who.
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