Posted on 08/26/2014 4:28:57 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
Page 9: “Italian Flag Torn Down”
Disorder Results When Red Banner Replaces Monarchist Emblem
A demonstration in celebration of the liberation of Paris before the French Embassy on the Piazza Farnese today became a near riot when a demonstrator stripped an Italian monarchy flag from its staff at a nearby police station and ran up the Red Flag with the Hammer and Sickle.
Fortunate on two counts, the post-War Italian government discontinued Mussolini's suppression of the communist party and the communists decided to become a political party contesting elections.
“Not our fault. We went to Triple A and asked for a current map of Paris. That’s the one they gave us.”
Blast from the past. I recall cross country drives with my parents and those AAA trip-tiks that unfolded with red arrows stamped on the map showing the route.
Heh!
I started my search for it by googling around to see when it was made.
So, when did early Parisians erect their town wall? Inquiring mind wants to know and has already spent more time on it than it’s worth.
By the way, that’s an absolutely fabulous map—thanks for including it.
Churchill saying “anvil” (”Dragoon”?) failed to accomplish its purpose and in fact has helped the Germans consolidate against “Eisenhower” (I assume that means more German forces against the allied front in northern and central France).
Whatddyathink?
I think it's sour grapes by Winston for having been turned down on his repeated pleas for a southern strategy.
I would note that the last brainchild of Winston's was to divert Anvil to Bourdeaux. As things turned out, the advance up the Rhone Valley has thrown the Germans into headlong retreat and allowed the FFI to liberate most of S.W. France with next to no help from us. Invading at Bordeaux would just have placed Patch further from the action and would have left the Germans in possession of the Southern Coast.
Remember, at this point everything is coming through Cherbourg and the beach. We still don't have Brest or Le Havre. Marseille is the largest French port and will help considerably.
To his most important point, did taking troops out of Italy allow Hitler to reinforce the Western Front to our detriment? I don't think so. You've seen the maps the last two weeks. France is a total debacle for the Germans. Their only hope is to establish a defensive belt on the German border and the Dutch rivers. They still have intact units in France, but need more. I think the Germans would have been forced to withdraw those units in any event. Did it hurt us? I don't think so. We will soon have Patch's army on the front line, later to be joined by 9th Army once it mops up Brittany.
But, what was the point Churchill wanted to make for leaving Patch's troops in Italy? A short path to Vienna. To do that Alexander would have to break the Gothic Line,conquer the Po Valley and then fight through the Alps. Has he done anything in the Italian campaign to indicate he could do that and get to Vienna in shorter order than it was done from the Western Front? I don't think so. Allied troops will get to Austria about the same time troops from the West arrived in Berchtesgaden.
The Americans diverted three veteran divisions from Italy for Anvil. The Germans have just re-deployed 3rd & 15th Panzergrenadier Divisions from Italy to the Somme/Marne sector. They won’t get there in time to make any difference.
I’d say it’s a wash on troop strength. Big plus as you noted taking the port of Marseilles. It will provide support for Devers and for Patton in about 60 days, far ahead of Antwerp.
Anvil was a big success purchased cheaply.
You can hear him yelling all the way from wherever he was to Command Headquarters: "Give me supplies and I'll kill Germans. Give me all the gas I need, and I'll go all the way to Berlin."
Who knows, maybe Patton could have proven Monty's spearhead, narrow-front theory right. Monty couldn't prove it but may be Patton could.
Busy school day here - I’m torturing the Offspring with fractions - but you’ve all made interesting points.
LOL!
One of my favorites from Gary Larsen...
I can think of worse fates. I’m very good at math, up to Algebra I.
Patton is nearing the German border and the Allies are not ready cross the Rhine and into Germany. First Army still has a lot of easy terrain ahead of it and can help clear the way for the slow moving Brits.
The other problem is supply, which henkster addressed a few days ago. Patton is now so far from Normandy he is reaching the end of what the Red Ball Express can deliver. Don't get me wrong, the Express was a great achievement, but only so many supplies can be delivered by truck from Cherbourg. The other thing First Army can help the Brits deliver is Antwerp, which is one of Europe's great ports. With Antwerp, we can drive into Germany with all the supplies we need.
I understand Patton's frustration, especially after Monty will cock up Market Garden and opening the Scheldt, but he is mostly a victim of circumstances.
Larson was one of the greats. I was really sorry when he put down his pen.
I’ve thought that the logistic tail and terrain made sense to have British 21st AG and American 12th AG with 9th and 1st Armies operate from the Ardennes north, and have its support go through Antwerp. 6th AG could comprise 3rd and 7th US Armies (French 1st Army was a weak sister) and they could operate south of the Ardennes. Their support would more naturally come up the valley of the Rhone from Marseilles. The main striking power of the Allied armies would be directed toward the Ruhr on the shortest route and with the best terrain.
Patton’s terrain was tougher in Lorrain, and across through the Saar to the upper Rhine. But looking at the map, it would make more sense to have 12th AG conduct separate operations on separate axes. That leaves 6th AG the resonsibility of coordinating the southern striking force. So why not?
I’m afraid it’s pretty simple: Ike despised Devers, commander of 6th AG, and treated him like a red-headed stepchild. No way was Devers getting Patton’s 3rd Army and anything like a major role in operations.
I can post more on this, and definitely will later in November when Bradley and Patton show up with Ike at Devers’ HQ looking to poach units from his command.
My apologies for the very poor grammar and syntax in the previous post. I would correct the errors but I’d have to re-write the whole thing. I hope you get the proper gist of my argument.
Interesting. I look forward to hearing more about it.
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