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"The system is not a simple system to use. You need at least four to six months of training and ongoing training to operate it," Ronald Bishop, a former U.S. Air Force missile expert, told Australia's Warwick Daily News. "To fire this system you need to have highly-specialized military training."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-airline-evidence-russia-2014-7#ixzz37zfF0qhh

1 posted on 07/20/2014 12:59:30 AM PDT by elhombrelibre
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To: elhombrelibre

Putin is banking on Obama, Cameron in Britain, and Merkel in Germany, doing a whole lot of postering and lecturing, but taking few actual measures that will directly effect Russia or their oil sales. Of all three ‘leaders’, Angela Merkel is the most likely to come down hard on Putin, at least rhetorically. Obama will continue to obfuscate, dither, and distract the public as much as possible.


2 posted on 07/20/2014 1:10:26 AM PDT by lee martell
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To: elhombrelibre

For me, the criminals’ behavior always gives it away.

Like we knew in our core that OJ was guilty, because he was running and suicidal.

Similarly, the VERY FIRST thing Putin does after the crash - even before the bodies are cold - is to blame Ukraine.

Classic behavior of someone who’s guilty. Maybe he didn’t specifically order it, but he provided the tools, and he knew his boys did it - he’s wearing this, and he knows that too.


4 posted on 07/20/2014 1:23:34 AM PDT by canuck_conservative
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To: elhombrelibre

10 posted on 07/20/2014 3:11:05 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (World Cup 2014 Final: Germany 1 Argentina 0)
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To: elhombrelibre
Bunk.

The manuals, average intelligence, and a few days doing dry runs newer and retrofitted systems even have provisions for dry runs built in.

This guy is without out a doubt pretending that what's required to operate such a system as part of an integrated air defense setup is always required as if there is no standalone mode.

I know for a fact that US defense analysts wrote papers about how easy they were to use in standalone mode back in the mid eighties because I was working for DoD then. It just ain't Effin' Magic they are designed to be as simple to use as possible because the more simple to operate they are the more their average lethality improves. There are fewer screwups with simple to operate systems than with complex systems in a complicated environment and that sort of enviroment dictates the minimum requirements.

Now, if you want to assume I'm just full of crap, fine. There's still the question of why the thousands of veterans in Ukraine who served in the Ukraine or Soviet military would all be veterans who drove trucks, dug ditches, or were Infantry grunts and not in air defense. Air defense was HUGE under the Soviets. Tens of thousands of people have trained on these systems. Not a single guy who's a Separatist from Ukraine though, huh?

So in reality, the degree to which someone needs to be trained to use it is moot point. It doesn't prove anything either way. If it's easy it doesn't clear Russia and Ukraine Separatists are still responsible. If it's difficult it doesn't mean Russia was involved and the Ukraine Separatists are still responsible.

This is all just more of the sort of noise that passes for reporting and distracts attention from the fact that 95% of what they're calling News about this is just repeating press releases and looking for the usual sad, bloody, photos. Turn on the media machine, hit the right hot buttons, and all the people who claim to not trust the media will hop on the bandwagon.

If the US and EU media are all going nuts about something and they all agree, it's to sell something critical to their agenda or to keep something critical to their agenda off the front page, not to get the facts out. The more they quote experts the more likely it is they're quoting experts that are in their pocket the way they trot out "Climate Scientists"

This is another rabbit hole to divert people into.

12 posted on 07/20/2014 3:18:09 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: elhombrelibre
As the wicked witch would say:
" What difference does it make?"

We all know that ZERO will do nothing but run that stupid mouth of his.
There will be lots of AAAAAAANNNNNNDDD's lots of UUUUUGGGGGHHHH's.
Dear loving GOD. Please let us survive for another 2 years. . .

14 posted on 07/20/2014 3:32:11 AM PDT by DeaconRed (ZERO Worst ever and still falling. Even Juan Williams now is turning on the scum. Is Combs next?)
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To: elhombrelibre

That site will never be properly investigated. The scene has been, if reports are right, utterly devastated.

Not to be crass, but the site has become the equivalent of the IRS saying the hard drive crashed—and nothing can be recovered.

Another natural result of the West’s corruption and weakness.

My theory is that no one wanted to shoot down a commercial airline.

If the Ukrainians did it, they thought it was a Russian jet.

If the Russians or the pro-Russian elements in Ukraine did it, they thought it was a Ukranian jet.

Corruption and weakness in the west leads to death and confusion—even in the east.

This is what America (apparently) voted for in 2008 and 2012. America WAS warned that Obama was not a strong leader—by Palin in 2008 and by Romney in 2012. America chose a different path.

We see the result: “re-set button” photo ops and “flexibility”.


24 posted on 07/20/2014 5:05:20 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: elhombrelibre

I am a trained radar operator from the 70’s

AN/TPQ-10 and AN/TYA-3
these were not fire control systems, they were long range monitoring (AN/TYA-3) and radar guided bombing (AN/TPQ-10)

the methods of control for the Q-10 would be similar, and this was 1950’s to 1960’s technology

a 4 pulse signal would be sent out, 4 separate signals out of the same antenna, 4 cones of a radar signal, where each of the 4 cones would intersect in the center

think of 4 circles that intersect in the center, think of the olympics symbol, instead of 5 circles, think of 4

I believe we called it a 4-pulse feedhorn array

once we aquired the aircraft on radar, we would move by handwheel, the direction of the radar, moving the radar antenna to face the signal return by moving the radar in it’s azimuth (left to right ) and then it’s elevation (up and down)

when the signal was centered on the intersection of the 4 pulse array, we would flick a switch and the radar would lock on to the aircraft.

the length of time it took for the pulse to generate and return, we would know the distance from the antenna, think of a hypotenuse of a triangle, using math to just measure that time difference between signal sent to signal return at the speed of light...

the radar would have electronic measurement of it’s elevation angle, so we would know how high it was pointed in the sky.

using a surveyor, would would program in the ground location by coordinates of where the radar was physically at and which end was north, what angle the base was pointed at, so the computer system would know which way was north and how the radar was oriented.

knowing where the radar was, and knowing where the aircraft was using the math of the radar return and distance and angle from the radar antenna (slant range, azimuth and elevation), we had a map and a display that would show where the aircraft was in the air.

we woould then direct it to the target, tell him what speed to fly at, what altitude and when to drop his bombs.

Isaac Newton would do the rest, the time of fall from an altitude is a simple physics problem for high school students, and the known speed the aircraf was flying at when it dropped its bombs, we directed it by voice vector to the target, told him when to drop his bombs to hit a target that the pilot was just flying over at the speed and altitude we told him to.

That would get a plane shot down nowadays, but here is my point:

radar systems are much more complicated today, not for the operator, but for the system of control. slewing the radar by azimuth to send out a signal to locate an aircraft might still be possible, but locking on to it using a multiple pulse feedhorn array, or whatever newer array, would be automatic now, controlled by digital systems, not tubes and contactors as my system did.

the training to run this system was 6 weeks, and I learned 2 other systems, the UYQ-3 and the TYA-3, running the radar TPQ-10 was not that hard, what was hard was monitoring and recording the degrees of error they were off the track and direction and recorded altitude and airspeed at the time of dropping their ordanance.

thatall means, a 20 year old Russian kid could have hit the switch.

he would have had a senior NCO as his boss, maybe a 27 year old guy, with a 28 or 30 year old officer being the one who most likely hit the launch button.

they would have had a 10 man unit who set up the radar, ran the electrical power and a/c cooling, drove the trucks to get there, a surveyor to locate the radar or use a GPS system instead. Most likely in this modern world, a gps system to locate the radar to within 3 feet so it knows where it is.

The radar would be sending signals out, receiving signals back, telling the radar where the aircraft is. The missile would be receiving correction signals to direct it’s flight to the target, all controlled by computer, and since the civilian airliner would be flying in a straight line, this would be an easy shootdown, all you would have to do it hit it 1/2 way of full capability of the warhead and that 777 would fall down go boom.

while a novice could not walk up and power this type of missile launcher, most likely each person who ran it was under 30


28 posted on 07/20/2014 5:41:06 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Lk 16:31 And he said unto him If they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will theybe persuaded)
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To: elhombrelibre
This place is an active "hot spot" war zone! WHY were they flying over a battle torn war zone?!? This is insanity at best! Something else is going on here, or sheer "Hey y'all, watch this" level stupidity was in full effect.

Recent battles in region of crash site (click for interactive map.)


35 posted on 07/20/2014 6:48:33 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: elhombrelibre
 photo daily_picdump_1580_640_55_zps00a2b193.jpg
38 posted on 07/20/2014 7:09:15 AM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: elhombrelibre

Putin has nothing to gain by shooting a commercial airline down. Nothing. This incident has decisively turned world opinion against Putin & Russia, and has weakened their position in the Ukraine. When you look at a possible crime, you always look at a motive. This could have been an accident. Perhaps a rival in the Russian government wants Putin out, perhaps it’s someone in the Ukrainian government or their allies that want to weaken Putin.
But it’s totally obvious, even before the incident occurred, that purposefully shooting down a commercial jet, and being blamed for it, is bad publicity. And it does not appear that Putin, if he did it, acted quickly and convincingly enough to create blame against Ukraine or the West. The fingers pointed immediately to Putin minutes after the incident, and most of the US state run media did not even have the integrity to thoroughly gather and analyze the evidence before making their definitive conclusions.


41 posted on 07/20/2014 7:11:58 AM PDT by grumpygresh (Democrats delenda est. New US economy: Fascism on top, Socialism on the bottom.)
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