WATCH: Bono's Unexpected Response to 'Who Is Jesus?' Question

Charisma News ^ | 31 March 14 | Charisma News Staff

[Fightin Whitey]

You haven’t been around much with your brisk, smart, witty postings.

You are making up for it somewhat today!

Good to see you here.

[Elsie]

Good tagline!!

(And homepage; too...)

[Elsie]

Only God can perfect the Lady.

And HE's having a, um.., heck of a time with ME!

[HiTech RedNeck]

Hey Claire, I’m not the Lady, but I know a “laddie” who might furnish some insight. I’m not saying every single solitary view of his has got to be correct, but it’s a treasury of attempts to square modern science and the scriptures in what is called an “Old Earth Creationist” view.

http://www.reasons.org

When following the bible accounts through cataclysmic events such as the fall in the Garden, the eviction from the Garden, and the Great Flood, I get the impression of a large transformation of the properties of the world, if not a shift from one universe to another. But that might just be HTRN. At any rate, if you get a God who can change the laws of physics like Scotty couldn’t, then you get a paradigm that conventional sciences by definition can’t completely penetrate. And the discussions and debates go on. It may not be possible to pin down any view over the others at this point.

[HiTech RedNeck]

He had a hell of a time guaranteeing it. Which is what we remember on this Good Friday.

[Elsie]

Which is what we remember on this Good Friday.

Isaiah 53

¹ Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
² For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
³ He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

⁴ Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
⁵ But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
⁶ All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Elsie]

Father; forgive them.

For they know not what they do...

Luke 23:34

 

 

[SoCal Pubbie]

Protestants in Northern Ireland consider themselves British.

[MarineBrat]

>>He could also be the guy that steps in and says “Hey Judge - I’ll serve his time.”

Yes, he has given me much. And I pray it will be my great honor one day to have the ability to return some of the favor with interest. And, metaphorically speaking, we’ll ride together and bring peace to all that we encounter.

When times get tough, the love of Jesus Christ is an awesome ace in the hole to carry in your pocket.

[A_perfect_lady]

Well... fine. Some prophecy has to wait. What would you expect if there is prophecy concerning the very end and the very end isn’t here yet.

So one cannot say that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy. In fact, the more I hear about it, the less sense it makes.

No one seems to be able to explain succinctly what the Old Testament predicted that Jesus actually fulfilled. There's OT prophecy, and then there's prophecy Jesus made, and then there's Revelations prophecy. People jumble them all together but they are not the same.

1. As far as I can tell, OT prophecy suggests a re-instatement of Israel. Jesus did not do that, therefore he does not fulfill OT prophecy. You say that's coming. Okay. Well, it hasn't yet, has it?

2. Jesus foretold himself returning to establish a Kingdom of God. But he didn't do that. Peter and Paul apparently started up a few churches in Syria and Greece, and a few surrounding cities, but that's not a kingdom, that's a small franchise, and Jesus wasn't there at all.

3. Nothing in the acid trip that is Revelations has come true yet.

4. If OT prophecy DID refer to Jesus' disciples establishing Christian churches, it makes no sense whatsoever that Jewish prophecy would name Messiah a man who converts Jews into a different religion.

5. If Jesus ever does come back, he won't be establishing Israel as a Jewish kingdom, it would be as a Christian kingdom and thus not at all what the OT prophets had in mind.

6. And there would be no reason why this Messiah should be Jewish as Judaism is left behind in this vision.

Therefore it stands to reason that the story of Jesus is something that has been altered several times by several different generations of people to fit their needs. Who Jesus is changes with every layer of tinkering.

During his lifetime, he was clearly canvasing Jewish areas, addressing Jewish life, Jewish relations, and the Covenant with God. By creating a cabinet of 12 disciples (obviously symbolic of the 12 tribes) he was angling to be the Messiah that would reinstate Israel as a Jewish kingdom. That is why his lineage was important. You don't need a Jew to create a new religion not based on Judaism. You DO, however, need a Jew to re-establish Israel as a Jewish kingdom.

After his death, followers came to the conclusion that they must have been mistaken about his intent. They re-interpreted him as having come to establish a new religion. That's the first change.

Once the emperor Constantine got hold of it, he may have felt the Jesus story could be used to influence both Christians and Jews, thus beginning the tradition of trying to posit Jesus as a successful fulfillment of Jewish prophecy.

Then the Catholic Church tweaks it further, to create the notion of further fulfillment to come...

So you're finally left with the modern day version which makes no sense at all: That Jesus came to fulfill OT prophecy and that he did it... well, not yet but he's going to, because the OT prophecy isn't really about a Jewish Kingdom of Israel but a new religion built on the same site. If that's all they were after, Islam would have satisfied them. It makes no sense.

[editor-surveyor]

We all get little previews here and there if we are willing to acknowledge them.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “ you believe that the Old Testament prophecies a Messiah who will come and convert Jews away from Judaism.” <<

I can’t imagine where you get that out of anything I posted!

Perhaps it depends on what you consider to be Judaism.

Yeshua came to fulfill and reinforce the true worship that Judaism was supposed to be under Torah.

Unfortunately, at some point after the Maccabean revolt, Pharisee-ism replaced what Yehova had ordained at Sinai with a pile of humanism contained in the Takanot and Ma’asim of the Pharisees ordinances. This humanism is what Yeshua took to the cross with him, thus restoring what Judaism was supposed to have been, for those that followed him.

Torah is the backbone of Yeshua’s Way that he declared was a narrow gate that few would find. That is the clear message in Matthew 5, that set the tone and path of his ministry.

Billions claim to follow Yeshua, but truly few do find his Way.
.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “No one seems to be able to explain succinctly what the Old Testament predicted that Jesus actually fulfilled.” <<

.
That is not a fair nor accurate statement.

Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies of the three Spring Feasts: Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost.

Passover is the ‘Biggie’ of the three, that fulfilled the promise that went out from Adam onward, of Salvation made possible under Grace through his payment of our debt with his sinless blood.
.

[A_perfect_lady]

So can you tell me in simple terms what Yehova ordained at Sinai? Please, do not cut and paste anything or refer to some chapters and verses. Put it in your own words. Explain like I’m five.

[A_perfect_lady]

Can you please tell me, again, in simple words, exactly what prophecies of Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost, that Jesus fulfilled. Again, please do not use fancy, archaic, thunderous, impressive sounding verbage. Use simple, plain language. Be succinct. Pretend you are explaining to a child.

[editor-surveyor]

Please get serious!

The Torah cannot be reduced to a nursery rhyme, and were you an honest commentor you wouldn’t be playing this cat-and-mouse game.

Read your Bible.
.

[A_perfect_lady]

I am being very serious. Mysterious language is the very first line of defense when employed to conceal a bunch of hokum. Haven't you noticed how fond university professors of humanism are of obscure language?

If you cannot put into plain language exactly what the prophecies of Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost are, that should alert you immediately that you are dealing with something suspect.

[mdmathis6]

I think you are closer to the truth than you even fully realize...Christ was a political figure who was killed “for the sake of the nation” as the high priest for that year had prophesied.(He was trying to give political and religious cover for those who wanted Jesus dead in my opinion,)

I’ll give you props for at least accepting(even if just for argument’s sake) that Christ might have existed, if only as a tragic political figure caught up in the historic events of the day and being crushed by the evil machinations of men as they existed under the shadow of mighty Rome!
Yeah, on one level it was simply that, Politics...a radical man, while not denying the faith of old, was a radical in that he actually insisted that men and priests actually live according to their ancient faith , and not according to the conveniences of ‘Talmudic and Mishna’ interpretive tradition that would excuse their hypocrisy...ooh the horror, Heaven forbid it!... That such a “rough beast”(TS Eliot reference alert...ding ding ding!) of a man slouching from Bethlehem should tell them how to live...kill that one!..stone him...manipulate the governor (by threatening to complain to Ceasar,) into crucifying this man! If the governor does it we are free of blood guilt, and if the governor does it, he too, will wash his hands of this business... so it’s nobody’s fault...no one will be able to prove who put him on that cross...just a bunch of wise guys I guess...what a shame! Blame the soldiers...they all commit war crimes anyway! Thus is the history of the politics of Humans...or as it says in Ecclesiastes...”there is nothing new under the sun!”

Oh you are so close to the truth...almost like breathing air so many times that one trivializes the importance of air! Just another little step, like bread cast upon waters only to see it returned to you after many days...but know this..you’ll see that bread returned to you a hundred fold!

[editor-surveyor]

The OT scriptures are not in any way “mysterious.”

Just read them and learn.

[A_perfect_lady]

In other words, you aren't certain. You are afraid that if you put it into plain language, it will lose the mystery and glamour and be revealed for a silly bunch of nonsense.

Look at the 2nd amendment: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Simple and right to the point. A simple truth can be put that way, and no one needs to go sorting through 300 pages of songs, stories, and speeches to get to it. It's straight up. It doesn't have to be gussied up to sound like Gandalf crossed with Peter Singer.

Just try it. Pick one of the four things I asked you to explain:

1. How does Jesus' life fulfill anything laid down at Sinai?

2. How does Jesus' life fulfill the prophecy of the Passover?

3. How does Jesus' life fulfill the prophecy of the First Fruits?

4. How does Jesus' life fulfill the prophecy of the Pentecost?

Just pick one. Tell me the prophecy in simple language and how he fulfilled it. If it's true, it doesn't take a wall of flowery text and an afternoon of study to figure it out. This isn't some warlock's code, right?