Why churches should brace for a mass exodus of the faithful: The more conservative churches, anyway

The Week ^ | 04/24/14 | Damon Linker

[thetallguy24]

A few weeks ago, I wrote about how the sweeping acceptance of gay marriage in recent years is owed in large part to Christianity. Rejecting the rigidly hierarchical and stratified societies of the ancient world, Jesus Christ taught the equal dignity of all persons, proclaimed that the meek shall inherit the earth, and declared that the last shall be first and the first shall be last. The Western world has been working out the logic of these subversive teachings ever since, with the institutional transformation of marriage being the latest, though surely not the last, example of its social, moral, and political consequences.

But what if the next institutions to be leveled by the Christian ideal of equality are the churches themselves?

I'm not talking about all of the churches. I mean those that have resisted reforming themselves in light of women's equality — and specifically those that resist this reform from the top down, with ecclesiastical authorities enforcing male-centered dogma and doctrine. That's mainly the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons).

A contrast with Protestantism and Judaism is instructive. There are, of course, many gender traditionalists in both faiths — evangelical Protestants and Orthodox Jews. But there is no overarching authority in either religion stipulating that traditionalism is the only valid form of belief. That means there are other options besides apostasy for dissenters. Don't like the traditionalism of your congregation? If you're a Protestant, you can find a more liberal, mainline alternative. If you're a Jew, look for a Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist synagogue.

But in both Catholicism and Mormonism, there's often nowhere else to go. It's either love it or leave it.

[Jim Noble]

resisted reforming themselves in light of women's equality

Meaningless babble.

Men and women are as they were created. There is nothing new under the sun.

[Mom MD]

We belong to a conservative protestant denomination (LCMS) No gay marriage, no abortion, no ordained females. We are doing fine. In fact my middle son has his interview today for admittance into our seminary. Truth will always win. Jesus
Christ has already won. Those that conform to the world will lose everything.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

In Matthew He was talking about people being against Him as the Christ.

In Luke He was talking about the disciples being upset that there were others outside their group who were calling on His name.

Entirely different cases

[El Cid]

"A few weeks ago, I wrote about how the sweeping acceptance of gay marriage in recent years ..."

Sure, let's start out with a bold faced lie. What "sweeping acceptance?" Every State where it has been put to a vote it has been swatted down. Marriage is between one man and one woman. The fact that activist judges and/or legislative branches have overruled the will of the people does not equate to "sweeping acceptance". Sweeping repugnance for this lie as well as sweeping repugnance for our Government. Our Government "leaders" have shown themselves to be in league with Satan.

[cuban leaf]

...Matthew 12:30 is for that who actively oppose or reject Jesus Himself.

---

But it mentions those who are not with Him, not those activel opposing Him, just as the Luke verse does.

In essence, one says those that are not actively agianst Me are still against Me. And the other says those that are not actively against you are for you.

To paraphrase further. It’s as though one says that if you are not actively against me, you are for me, and the other says if you are not actively for me, you are against me. i.e. one tells the guys in the middle they are against Him and the other tells them they are with Him.

[FiddlePig]

1 Timothy 4:1-2 comes to mind:

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.”…

[snoringbear]

“I think that the eye of the needle will be getting smaller and smaller as those exiting the teachings of Christ increase.”

Guess my church hasn’t received the memo as it’s growing quite nicely.

[ckilmer]

the churches whose membership is declining are the ones that have accepted homosexuality.

[AppyPappy]

There have always been those times. The good old days were never that good. Grace is still a relatively new concept to the Christian church and yet we now know it to be the central pillar of Christianity.
The problem has always been what we choose to ignore.

[Ransomed]

First, there are several states that either rejected a marriage amendment by popular vote or actually voted ‘gay marriage’ in. Second the popular voting trends are not positive, like 2012 NC voting for their amendment by the same amount CA voted for prop. 22 in 2000, 61%. So 2012 NC is where 2000 CA was on the issue. 8 years later CA passed prop. 8 by 52%. Third, if you would have told someone in 1994 that by 2014 18+ state governments will have accepted ‘gay marriage’ you would have considered that person a wacked out moon cadet.

Freegards

[sigzero]

You have to read the context of the Luke passage. There were people out there doing things in Jesus’ name and actually promoting Jesus. The Disciplines got miffed and asked Jesus what to do about them and he gave his answer. Matthew 12 is teaching something entirely different.

[cuban leaf]

You struck at the heart of the difference in the two. One said “Me” and the other said “you”. And you reminded me of the context that brings much deeper meaning to the two verses that, although is clear once one thinks about it, is lost if one is focused merely on the literal translation of the words.

Thank you.

And no, this was not a setup. I’ve never really studied the two verses together in any real sense. I’ve just been aware of them in passing and they seemed to contradict each other. But as you pointed out, they don’t because they are not talking about the same thing.

[jurroppi1]

Perhaps we’ve discussed this before; if so, I apologize in advance for dragging you down the rabbit hole again...

“Except for people who divorce and remarry. He was pretty hard on them.”

I keep hearing this and reading this statement. I have a hard time reconciling it with my personal experience and what has occurred in my life. I have no surety how I will be judged in this regard, but I find it hard to believe a loving and forgiving God would want me to miserable and alone because my previous partner chose to make things irreconcilable in the previous marriage.

What is a person to do when faced with an impending divorce they have no control over, especially after months of introspection, grief and prayer. Are we supposed to live a life of celibacy and lonesomeness in this regard? Are we to never re-marry?

I’ve been told many things by many people, all of it seems to contradict in one way or another.

[miss marmelstein]

Oooh, that male-dominated dogma that I learned as a kid in the late 50s and early 60s! Oooh, ruined my life by giving me an ethical standard that has stood me in good stead for 50 years or so...with a lapse or two.

[cuban leaf]

Back in the 20th century I used this example regarding men and women being equal:

A Dodge pickup with the ten cylinder engine is “equal” to the Dodge viper with the ten cylinder engine. However, each vehicle was designed with a different purpose. If I want to haul some hay for my horses, the pickup is the answer. If I want to scoot across Montana on I-90, the Viper is a much better choice. Neither is better. It depends on the job.

And the same is true of men and women. And yes, God gave them different roles that best match their strengths.

That is a good thing.

But feminists attempt to convince men to get in touch with their feminine side. They put wide city tires on the truck, lower it, and put a fancy cover over the bed. Meanwhile, they tell the women they have the same rights as men, so they jack up the viper, throw some mud treads on it and tear up the back of the viper to put a cute little truck bed on it.

And what do you get? A truck that can’t haul anything or take on rough terrain, and a sports car that can’t carry anything of significance and rides like a jeep. IOW, both are performing below their ability because of an induced identity crisis.

If I want to get in touch with my feminine side, I reach for my wife. And she reaches for me when she wants to get in touch with her masculine side.

We are like an engine and transmission. Both of little value individually, but when coupled together, a powerful force indeed.

[Stosh]

Of course - and all along I’ve been wondering why the mainline Protestant denominations have been doing so well, at the expense of all those rigid evangelical churches. /s

[yldstrk]

this insane author dares mention Catholicism and Mormonism in the same breath as if they were anything close to equal. Mormonism is a sick cult.

[El Cid]

Re: 30
First, there are several states that either rejected a marriage amendment by popular vote or actually voted ‘gay marriage’ in...

I did not check the records - but this is probably something that happened in the last few years. Up until a few years ago, there was an unbeaten string of popular votes rejecting 'homosexual marriages' (there is no such a thing). So I should amend my previous statement from: 'all popular votes in the States have rejected homosexual marriages' to 'the vast majority of popular votes in the States have rejected homosexual marriages'.

I understand that the trend is not healthy - but as you noted, even California recently passed a Proposition defining a marriage as between one man and one woman. The fact that they found a Sodomite Judge in San Francisco to over rule the will of the people does not change the fact that 'even California' even at this late of a decayed condition - understands that homosexual liaisons are not marriage.

[Thapsus_epiphany]

I believe that you have it exactly right. In many circumstances, congregations have had the hedonism of homosexuality forced upon them, much like the courts have done in the secular world. The result, like the ‘gay bishop’ in the Episcopal church Gene Robinson in New Hampshire, has been the almost complete destruction of the church itself. The Episcopal church has been virtually destroyed by having this forced upon them, resulting in a 75% drop in attendance, and an actual split in the church itself. The author of the article has it exactly backwards, but as with all liberals, he suffers from the inherent emotionalism and lack of reason that afflicts them all. Their tactics are to destroy any institution that they cannot infiltrate. As long as a single institution exists that resists them, there is always the possibility of a resistance movement rallying around the lone holdout, similar to the communists and the Russian Czar and his family, whom they wiped out to the last person. It has been exactly 40 years since homosexuality was removed from the list of mental illnesses by the American Psychiatric Association. Forty years is very biblical, so perhaps this is the year the evil tide begins to roll back ?

[elcid1970]

Our society is in a culture war with an unbridgeable gap between the main antagonists. I am on the side of those who believe that our Redeemer liveth.

I no longer argue with liberals but simply turn & walk away. A much better use of my time.