Posted on 03/05/2014 3:54:07 PM PST by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
Public discussion on Ukraine is all about confrontation. But do we know where we are going? In my life, I have seen four wars begun with great enthusiasm and public support, all of which we did not know how to end and from three of which we withdrew unilaterally. The test of policy is how it ends, not how it begins. Far too often the Ukrainian issue is posed as a showdown: whether Ukraine joins the East or the West. But if Ukraine is to survive and thrive, it must not be either side’s outpost against the other — it should function as a bridge between them. Russia must accept that to try to force Ukraine into a satellite status, and thereby move Russia’s borders again, would doom Moscow to repeat its history of self-fulfilling cycles of reciprocal pressures with Europe and the United States. The West must understand that, to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country. Russian history began in what was called Kievan-Rus. The Russian religion spread from there. Ukraine has been part of Russia for centuries, and their histories were intertwined before then. Some of the most important battles for Russian freedom, starting with the Battle of Poltava in 1709 , were fought on Ukrainian soil. The Black Sea Fleet — Russia’s means of projecting power in the Mediterranean — is based by long-term lease in Sevastopol, in Crimea. Even such famed dissidents as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Joseph Brodsky insisted that Ukraine was an integral part of Russian history and, indeed, of Russia.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
Russia will not allow all of Ukraine to be part of NATO. It will not allow Crimea to be a NATO base. Not now and not for the next 40 years.
The country may be split West and East and the largely useless and poor West can join NATO, but we will have to regularly pump billions of dollars in to have this territory.
We are bankrupt, financially, and increasingly morally.
The last thing we need is a conflict in Europe over a non-vital U.S. interest. We have other more pressing geopolitical issues, including the Middle East and the Pacific.
The Neo-Cons are threatening our nation yet again with more bankruptcy and more dead and maimed young boys. They want Cold War 2. NO thanks!
The old croc is right.
“Russian history began in what was called Kievan-Rus”
Will they go with monitored elections and a brokered solution?
Depends on how well our “President” and the EU idiots play it. Putin doesn’t want any interference or lectures.
Send Kissinger. He’s not dead yet. Le Duc Tho said he was the most implacable negotiator he’d ever encountered, and that’s saying a lot coming from an Asian Communist.
Hopefully he won’t give up too much ground like he did in ‘73 when he left half of Vietnam in VC hands.
But that was a bit different...and almost anyone is better then Lurch
Neo-cons, eh?
Yeah. That’s the ticket.
I don’t understand how or why you have internalized and propagate the Russian position and world view.
Dr K says: “... if Ukraine is to survive and thrive, it must not be either side’s outpost against the other — it should function as a bridge between them.”
This makes sense
But, “The West must understand that, to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country.”
This does not.
Is this Putin propaganda? Seriously, Ukraine should be independent and not a satellite of either side of this.
-——Bridge——
There you have it. That will be the final result even if Crimea reverts to Russia
Russia and Ukraine can’t really be separated.
Principled negotiations suggests Kissinger calmly.
Brzezinski’s op-ed was more liberal hysteria
Russia wins this one. Let the EU deal with. The Ukraine's disarmed themselves on promises from socialists and democrats. I'm not very interested in them or Europe right now when my own country is being dismantled wholesale by a kenyan faggot.
I have this in my library:
Kissinger: the adventures of super-kraut
http://books.google.com/books/about/Kissinger.html?id=HydCAAAAIAAJ
“The Neo-Cons are threatening our nation yet again with more bankruptcy and more dead and maimed young boys. They want Cold War 2. NO thanks!”
I’ve been reading a lot of this all over the internet. What if Putin seizes all of the Ukraine? Russia has historical interests there. For that matter, what about Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania? There are Neo Nazis there and lots of Russian speakers. Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Rumania, etc. legitimate Russian sphere of influence?
P.S. You know we stole Alaska whose abundant resources are all within Russia’s declared Arctic sphere of influence. At the same time, east Asia all belongs to China. Just ask them.
I am pretty sure this promise is just a Russian myth. Everyone in the USA, including George H. W. Bush, has denied it. Below is a page with a link to 17 a page document by Mark Kramer on it.
https://csis.org/publication/twq-myth-no-nato-enlargement-pledge-russia-spring-2009
Never. For Russia, that is a red line.
I think a Finland type arrangement might be a workable solution. Finland is a member of the EU but has also pursued a pro-Russia policy out of necessity, both during the Cold War and afterwards.
Ukraine should pursue a similar policy. There is no reason why being in the EU should be incompatible with continued closeness to Russia.
The EU should amend its rules to allow Ukraine to also join the Eurasian Union at a later date if it wants. Europe must not exclude Russia’s interests and make it a zero sum competition about exclusive trading blocs membership.
Finland will never join NATO. The principled approach of Ukraine should be the same stance - we want to be in Europe but we will never side against Russia.
Within that framework, a political settlement is possible. I think it will have to wait until Ukraine gets a freely elected government that has the legitimacy to speak for the country as Russia will never deal with its present leadership.
In before I thought he was dead!
Want to end this? Two words.
President Cruz.
Yes. The people in the streets in Kiev were all shouting "NATO! NATO! NATO!",
Bush promised Gorbachev it would never happen,
Bush made no such promise. This is a lie which has been demolished many times. Stop repeating it, or prove to everyone on FR that you also are a liar.
it happened starting under the next President, Klintoon.
And that is why Ukraine is part of NATO today. [Facepalm.]
No President is bound by any promise made by his predecessors unless that promise is backed by a written treaty confirmed by the Senate.
Things may function differently in your native Russia, but they don't function that way here.
Russia will not allow all of Ukraine to be part of NATO. It will not allow Crimea to be a NATO base. Not now and not for the next 40 years.
And we should be supporting a country which believes it is entitled to dictate the foreign policy decisions of a sovereign neighbor because ...?
Stop spreading your Soviet lies and agitprop in a conservative forum.
End game— people of Criema will become a Pro-Russia semi independent state—There will be a vote, Then Criema will join Mother Russia. Period. Putin Wins.
Yep. A bridge between the east and the west. A very rare event, if they can pull it off.
Henry Kissinger: The man who lost the Vietnam War.
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