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Firearm incident sparks debate over rights
timesargus.com ^ | 2 August, 2013 | NA

Posted on 08/03/2013 9:13:44 AM PDT by marktwain

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To: Respond Code Three

Again has it hit the USSC for a definitive ruling in this land? Sounds like a legitimate constitutional question, much has been made over vaguer matters.


41 posted on 08/03/2013 10:19:45 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

The courts give latitude to the police in an investigation relative to the safety of the officers and the complexity of the investigation. Each case has to be evaluated on its merits whether a detention was excessive and constituted an arrest.


42 posted on 08/03/2013 10:20:56 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: Respond Code Three

...and, glad to be here for one more day.


43 posted on 08/03/2013 10:21:33 AM PDT by moovova (Sell everything, folks. Be poised to run.)
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To: Respond Code Three

Wouldn’t it be better to request “an attorney of my choice” rather than “my attorney” if there is none specific in direct mind? Otherwise you are asking for a nonentity. And chiding for not having one in mind is not an answer to the question.


44 posted on 08/03/2013 10:23:20 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Your best source would be to search for rulings on detentions and arrests. There are any number of things that will come up on you search. These things have been litigated endlessly already in practically every State and Federal Court. In some civil cases, the plaintiff prevails. In most cases, they fail.


45 posted on 08/03/2013 10:24:03 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: marktwain
Anytime you are put in handcuffs, your have been placed under arrest by definition.

That is an incorrect statement of law, though may lay persons think such to be the case. The Courts have held that handcuffing is a factor in determining whether a finding of custody is necessitated, but it is not determinative.

"Handcuffing a suspect does not necessarily dictate a finding of custody." See United States v. Purry, 178 U.S. App. D.C. 139, 545 F.2d 217, 220 (D.C.Cir.1976).

"Strong but reasonable measures to insure the safety of the officers or the public can be taken without necessarily compelling a finding that the suspect was in custody." See United States v. Coades, 549 F.2d 1303, 1305 (9th Cir. 1977) See also United States v. Patterson, 648 F.2d 633 (9th Cir. 1977).

For further discussion, also see: United States v. Esieke, 940 F.2d 29, 36 (2d Cir. 1991); Flowers v. Fiore, 359 F.3d at 30; United States v. Pratt, 355 F.3d 1119, 1123 (8th Cir. 2004); Meredith v. Erath, 342 F.3d 1057, 1062-63 (9th Cir. 2003); United States v. Hamlin, 319 F.3d 666, 671 (4th Cir. 2003); United States v. Neff, 300 F.3d 1217, 1220 (10th Cir. 2002); United States v. Jordan, 232 F.3d 447, 449 (5th Cir. 2000); United States v. Gil, 204 F.3d 1347, 1351 (11th Cir. 2000); Houston v. Does, 174 F.3d 809, 815 (6th Cir. 1999); United States v. James, 40 F.3d 850, 875 (7th Cir. 1994), vacated on other grounds, 516 U.S. 1022, 133 L. Ed. 2d 515, 116 S. Ct. 664 (1995); United States v. Jones, 297 U.S. App. D.C. 356, 973 F.2d 928, 931 (D.C. Cir.), reh'g granted and opinion vacated in part on [675] other grounds, 980 F.2d 746 (D.C. Cir. 1992).

46 posted on 08/03/2013 10:24:28 AM PDT by JohnGerald
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To: Respond Code Three

Even if it were a likely (but not certain) lose wouldn’t it be virtuous if practical to at least put up the resistance afterwards, make a lot of noise etc? The more the government is tied up in court and against public opinion the less it can harass?


47 posted on 08/03/2013 10:25:34 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

The statement that you want to talk to an attorney is sufficient for Miranda. It conveys the information that you don’t want to answer any questions without legal guidance. It doesn’t matter at that time if the attorney is the public defender or Zimmerman’s attorneys.


48 posted on 08/03/2013 10:27:13 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: JohnGerald

Well lets get to nuts and bolts; they took his gun which they had no proof was being borne illegally or with malicious intent. Should not one be privileged upon request to be released and to leave, sans gun (to be reclaimed later via writ of replevin), perhaps after cursory frisk?


49 posted on 08/03/2013 10:27:25 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: immadashell

He is lucky he wasn’t walking his dog at the time.


50 posted on 08/03/2013 10:27:35 AM PDT by jospehm20
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To: Respond Code Three

I believe what was stated above was, however, “MY” attorney. One would hope not to make technically nonsensical statements though some flustering is understandable at the time. And “AN” attorney might mean they then call the county prosecutor to greet you... it really should be in logic “an attorney of my choice.”


51 posted on 08/03/2013 10:28:49 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: Respond Code Three

Also the attorney means you want to be able to litigate...?


52 posted on 08/03/2013 10:30:07 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: marktwain

I try to take the long view in trying to alleviate such problems before they become problems, by starting with some axioms.

1) Police on patrol are essentially acting as predators. This means that first, something attracts their attention, and then they try to determine is it legal or unlawful. In a way they are like young men girl-watching (as someone said, “like lions watching a gazelle”); because they too are content to just watch intently, unless something compels them to go hit on that attractive gazelle.

So the important lesson here is that if you are carrying, open or concealed, you are not looking or doing something else that attracts the eye.

In this case, his being shirtless, plus his unknowingly being in a place with recent property and gun crime, tipped the balance of attention.

2) Being known to the police as an open or concealed carry person does wonders in their attitude, but is not always practical. But there is also “community standards”, of which it is very important to be aware of. For example, in a “liberal” area, assume that a lot of people will get agitated by just seeing a gun. And that it is going to take a while for them to get over their irrational fear, or at least their willingness to call the police about their irrational fear.

3) This all points to the value of public relations. If you want to carry in an area, you can “inoculate” the area ahead of time about the legality of gun carry, your good intentions, how business owners should approach their employees, etc. Such inoculation can last several years, and avoids a lot of unwanted stress and harassment.

Likewise a friendly conversation with a police officer can inoculate his entire department, again for several years. And they might not even know your name, just that “some people are now legally carrying open and concealed, which is okay, so don’t get upset about it unless you see them doing something else. I’ve mentioned it to dispatch, so if some upset citizen calls in, they will settle them down.”


53 posted on 08/03/2013 10:31:53 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Be Brave! Fear is just the opposite of Nar!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
"The more the government is tied up in court and against public opinion the less it can harass?"

Here is we might start getting slightly off topic. We have a Government headed by a man who doesn't care what the law says, and the DOJ is headed by another man who has already been ruled in contempt of congress. The "government" has an infinite supply of money and lawyers and doesn't care about public opinion. The officer on the beat who screws up is a small fish compared to the ravenous sharks of the Feds. The rogue officer threatens one citizen at a time, the Feds constantly threaten us all.

54 posted on 08/03/2013 10:32:22 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

A request for an attorney in the immediate actions of being arrested is a request for legal counsel before answering questions. Civil litigation is possible, but that is not why the Miranda warning is mandated.


55 posted on 08/03/2013 10:36:10 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: Respond Code Three

Well what does that have to do with Vermont popo?


56 posted on 08/03/2013 10:36:47 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I suppose they could call the County Prosecutor. But the case would be summarily dismissed as a “conflict of interest.” And I think disciplinary proceedings would be instituted against all persons involved in such a stunt.


57 posted on 08/03/2013 10:40:08 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: marktwain

Am I being detained? Am I free to go? I do not consent to a search. I choose not to answer any questions. ... lather rinse repeat, over and over. That is all an officer would get from me.


58 posted on 08/03/2013 10:40:08 AM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obarma now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

It’s sad that these police departments are not Andy Griffith who can be civil and, like, ask why the gun. Upon which one could say for the sake of safety. How does being shirtless add to anyone’s being a menace. The popo problem isn’t just a popo problem, it is a humanity problem which is a devil problem which is a God problem. (Maybe if they did that to me I’d preach the gospel to them explaining that there is a God ready to put them in eternal bonds if they are not saved from their sins.)


59 posted on 08/03/2013 10:40:54 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Nothing I guess. Just getting a little off the subject.


60 posted on 08/03/2013 10:41:04 AM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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