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When Work Disappears: What do we do with people whose livelihoods are destroyed? (Left waking-up?)
The Daily Beast ^ | June 14, 2013 | Megan McArdle

Posted on 06/16/2013 1:38:27 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Paul Krugman has a column today on a topic you don't normally get much of from economists: sympathy for the Luddites. Back in 2001, when I sat in on my last formal economics class, this was about as daring a proposition as "Sympathy for the Devil" was as an album title.

---snip---

But I have started worrying about what's taking place at the bottom of the economy. In much of the industrial world, it seems to be increasingly difficult for people to earn a decent living without a fairly elite set of skills--or an elite set of credentials that mimic skills, like a BA in English Literature from an Ivy League institution. The ability to earn a decent living, either yourself or as part of a family, is one of the basic criteria for a decent life. (And yes, before you ask: I think trust funds can be just as toxic as lifetime welfare benefits.)

---snip---

For starters, it is politically difficult to imagine a really large class of people who simply permanently live off the state. The safety net is rooted in human instincts about reciprocal exchange. Of course, it isn't all that reciprocal--the majority of people who are net taxpayers are extremely unlikely to collect much in the way of food stamps, TANF, or even unemployment insurance. Nonetheless, the moral arguments are founded in the premise that these benefits are for emergencies, and anyone can have an emergency. They will lose political support if you have one group of people paying taxes, and a different group of people who can expect to live their entire life on the dole.

Such an arrangement would also be socially toxic....

(Excerpt) Read more at thedailybeast.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: college; economy; education; foodstamps; jobs; obama; unemployment; welfare
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1 posted on 06/16/2013 1:38:27 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

And we are about to import another 30 million + of them.


2 posted on 06/16/2013 1:40:18 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

As of now, I personally know of 4 men in my small circle of friends, all aged between 55-60, who have lost their jobs, just a few years after loosing a sizable portion of their retirement savings a few years back. They are slowly beginning to realized they’re never going to find jobs again, even if the economy improves. Among the unemployed are huge numbers of people like these who have been forced into early unfunded retirements.


3 posted on 06/16/2013 1:42:27 PM PDT by keats5 (Not all of us are hypnotized.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Gee off shoring perfectly productive and profitable manufacturing off shore was such a good idea. /sarc


4 posted on 06/16/2013 1:42:58 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va

The free traders will be here soon to yell at you.


5 posted on 06/16/2013 1:46:56 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: central_va

Lobbying Congress to offshore jobs and get more low wage Indians in America sure added to Bill Gates’ pocketbook and now he has the balls to suggest that Americans should shut up about Socialism and cough up more taxes.

To me, he LIED to Congress in stating that there were insufficient people in America to do the work. Lock him up and let him rot awhile.


6 posted on 06/16/2013 1:49:29 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: EEGator
The free traders will be here soon to yell at you.

They will tell us all those laid off line workers have had plenty of time to train as neurosurgeons and software engineers.

7 posted on 06/16/2013 1:50:02 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Luddite: a member of any of various bands of workers in England (1811–16) organized to destroy manufacturing machinery, under the belief that its use diminished employment.

Our problem isn’t luddites. It’s a government that makes going into business for oneself almost impossible. Between the IRS, the EPA, OSHA & the rest of the alphabet soup of gov’t agencies, trying to start some kind of enterprise is just too formidable for most people. And since it’s so easy to get on the dole & stay there, why bother?


8 posted on 06/16/2013 1:50:26 PM PDT by Twotone (Marte Et Clypeo)
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To: EEGator

It isn’t free trade when billions of dollars of R&D are done abroad and the software is imported via the internet without paying import duty.


9 posted on 06/16/2013 1:50:39 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Make knick-knacks?


10 posted on 06/16/2013 1:51:12 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
This really is a huge problem and not enough people see it.

So far, the only solution anyone seems to have is: Tax the bejeezuz out of anyone who is productive, and give government charity to anyone who is unemployable.

That's a really rotten solution.

But if there is no work for a large percentage of the population, then I just don't know what you do. We can fiddle with tax policy, and we can stop off-shoring, etc. To some extent, that is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. In a world in which average and below-average tasks are performed by machines, and above-average people have real work -- it starts to look like a free ride for all the average and below-average people is the way to go.

And, as I say, that's a rotten solution.

11 posted on 06/16/2013 1:52:03 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Twotone

Yeah, I was going to also say our problem isn’t the Luddites.

It’s the socialists.


12 posted on 06/16/2013 1:52:17 PM PDT by keats5 (Not all of us are hypnotized.)
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To: keats5
Among the unemployed are huge numbers of people like these who have been forced into early unfunded retirements.

The reality is that if you're in your fifties and aren't on the fast track to upper management, you're living on borrowed time. I found this out the hard way.

13 posted on 06/16/2013 1:53:35 PM PDT by Menehune56 ("Let them hate so long as they fear" (Oderint Dum Metuant), Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC))
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To: ClearCase_guy

A Civil War followed by a World War might whittle down the untermensch.


14 posted on 06/16/2013 1:54:35 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: a fool in paradise

I’m in agreement with you. America also doesn’t have slave labor.


15 posted on 06/16/2013 1:55:26 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: central_va

Yep, meanwhile we circle the drain.


16 posted on 06/16/2013 1:56:01 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: central_va

I hate to say it, but the Black Death killed more than a third of Europe off in the 14th century, and it sparked enormous economic and cultural growth.


17 posted on 06/16/2013 1:58:02 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Free traders and Liberals should occupy the same lower levels of a fiery and sulphurous Hell. Expedited delivery, of course.


18 posted on 06/16/2013 1:58:51 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

And. . . when we DO have need to get some of the help we’ve paid in for for decades. . . strangely, we’re not eligible. . .


19 posted on 06/16/2013 1:59:07 PM PDT by Salgak (http://catalogoftehburningstoopid.blogspot.com 100% all-natural snark !)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“For starters, it is politically difficult to imagine a really large class of people who simply permanently live off the state”

She’s kidding, right?


20 posted on 06/16/2013 1:59:16 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: EEGator
America also doesn’t have slave labor....yet.
21 posted on 06/16/2013 2:02:05 PM PDT by seowulf ("If you write a whole line of zeroes, it's still---nothing"...Kira Alexandrovna Argounova)
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To: ClearCase_guy

The problem is greed. Every tom, dick and harry wants a mobile phone, cable tv and a euro sedan. These things were luxuries 30 yrs ago. I remember my Dad bringing home our first color TV - in 1967. It was a big deal. We got a window A/C unit and I thought we were royalty...


22 posted on 06/16/2013 2:02:46 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Brave New World. Betas will all do construction work in return for section 8 housing and food stamps.


23 posted on 06/16/2013 2:03:44 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: central_va

They will tell us all those laid off line workers have had plenty of time to train as neurosurgeons and software engineers.
***********************************
And Microsoft will still hire Indian engineers with degrees “earned” simply by paying the enrollment fee who passed their finals by sharing answers with 20 of their closest friends... but it’s OK , on their resume they will state that they (magically) have 6 years of experience on a software platform that has only been around for two years ... but it’s all OK because that is exactly what MSFT will put in the req. .


24 posted on 06/16/2013 2:04:51 PM PDT by Neidermeyer (I used to be disgusted , now I try to be amused.)
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To: MinorityRepublican

Roadwork and the like to be more specific. Doesn’t have to be too automated. Only shovels if necessary.


25 posted on 06/16/2013 2:06:07 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

a really large class of people who simply permanently live off.

Those jobs are not coming back.
Obama


26 posted on 06/16/2013 2:07:53 PM PDT by Vaduz
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To: keats5
all aged between 55-60

Yep, I know the feeling.

In retrospect we should all have gone to work for big banks, where you not only don't get punished for bad business and criminal acts, but are rewarded with bonuses and bailouts and sometimes loot right out of customer accounts.

27 posted on 06/16/2013 2:08:33 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: headstamp 2

And we are about to import another 30 million + of them.


Yes, that is absolute madness. Of course, many new low wage jobs are opening up because employers are limiting hours to deal with Obamacare. So where you used to have one employee, you may now have 1.5 or 2 employees.

The other thing is that it takes increasingly fewer people to make stuff. This is independent of offshoring as its is being caused by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and automation. A few years ago, we saw the state of AI with Watson beating human contestants on “Jeopardy”. And those were the elite contestants. That technology is being applied to the medical field and customer service. Cars are now able to drive themselves (see the Google Car). And AI will continue to get exponentially more capable in the coming decades. Many college graduates with “knowledge” jobs will find themselves out of a job. The rise of 3D printing will also eliminate a lot of manufacturing jobs. If you want a secure job, pick something that involves working with your brain or hands that is difficult to automate (e.g., plumber, electrician, hairdresser, etc). But there are only so many jobs in that category.

Another factor driving policy is that companies just want a population to BUY THEIR STUFF. And, at the end of the day, they couldn’t care less, if the $$ people spend comes from legitimate work or welfare. In the end, public assistance is a subsidy to retail (Walmart), consumer products (Proctor and Gamble), and healthcare companies, etc. If you look at things from that perspective, a lot of the madness starts to make more sense.

If you want to know what the future will be like, read a book called “Player Piano” by Kurt Vonnegut. It was written back in the 1950s, but it increasingly looks like Kurt got it right.


28 posted on 06/16/2013 2:09:49 PM PDT by rbg81
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The woman is saying that it “would be” a toxic situation “if” one group pays the living expenses for another group spending their entire life on the dole.

Hey, lady, it’s not a hypothrtical situation. It’s happening now and has been happening for too many years.

I’m in Group A.


29 posted on 06/16/2013 2:11:23 PM PDT by citizen (We get the government we choose. America either voted for Obama or handed it to him by not voting.)
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To: keats5

...Then that means they missed the life lessons of the business world of the 1980’s.

This is America. America is not about ‘finding work.’ America is about making money, finding our own bootstraps, and pursuing our dreams.

You see...this is the core difference between Democrats and Republicans. Jobs in America have never been a finite resource, because Americans have always been able to pursue their dreams.

0bama and his ilk have killed that ability, but these men, those of us in this age group lived the turn around of the 1980’s. Sure we were young 20-somethings...but the age group of 55-60 then found themselves in the same position.

But...post Jimmy Carter and with a President with a vision for a renewed America...those men dared to pursue their dreams when society gave up on them. Us young folks...well we chased after them with those dreams.

WE know how to turn this around...the question is do we recall how they did it and did we learn anything from their tenacity?

“Our friends in the other party will never forgive us for our success, and are doing everything in their power to rewrite history. Listening to the liberals, you’d think that the 1980s were the worst period since the Great Depression, filled with suffering and despair. I don’t know about you, but I’m getting awfully tired of the whining voices from the White House these days. They’re claiming there was a decade of greed and neglect, but you and I know better than that. We were there.”


30 posted on 06/16/2013 2:11:29 PM PDT by EBH (The government that sits in Washington, D.C. is not the United States government.)
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To: steve86

I am really good with my hands and I should have been a tradesman and worked tax free. I would have still filed a return with bare minimum amounts to make it look good.


31 posted on 06/16/2013 2:11:42 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

When the first 2 words are Paul Krugman, you know you’ll need to break out the correcting pen. 90% of what he surmises has no relation to reality, logic, history, or basic economics.


32 posted on 06/16/2013 2:11:44 PM PDT by Teacher317 (Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Such an arrangement would also be socially toxic....

Barry's "change" has come home to roost. May the democrat party bear the stigma of anger and disgust by people whose lifestyles have been forever changed to multiple jobs, lost homes, lost vehicles, and lost savings due to their job killing, economy killing policies. This democrat push for amnesty for illegals is like the cork on a wine bottle about to pop.

33 posted on 06/16/2013 2:11:44 PM PDT by MamaDearest
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To: MamaDearest
Barry's "change" has come home to roost. May the democrat party bear the stigma of anger and disgust by people whose lifestyles have been forever changed to multiple jobs, lost homes, lost vehicles, and lost savings due to their job killing, economy killing policies. This democrat push for amnesty for illegals is like the cork on a wine bottle about to pop.

I agree but how do we make that jive with Obastards reelection?

34 posted on 06/16/2013 2:14:04 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: seowulf

That will be doubleplusgood.


35 posted on 06/16/2013 2:15:03 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: ClearCase_guy
I hate to say it, but the Black Death killed more than a third of Europe off in the 14th century, and it sparked enormous economic and cultural growth.

The Black Death disproportionately affected the urban poor because of their rat-infested living conditions.
36 posted on 06/16/2013 2:17:23 PM PDT by Colinsky
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To: ClearCase_guy
But if there is no work for a large percentage of the population, then I just don't know what you do.

We have to find a way to restore the American dream. We have to give back to people the ability to have their 'pursuit of happiness.'

The progressives/liberals/democrats have destroyed the American Dream. A smart politician would start chattering about restoring the dream.

37 posted on 06/16/2013 2:18:13 PM PDT by EBH (The government that sits in Washington, D.C. is not the United States government.)
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To: rbg81

“If you want a secure job, pick something that involves working with your brain or hands that is difficult to automate (e.g., plumber, electrician, hairdresser, etc).”

What’s that? You say the trades are fashionable again?

(grin)

The problem is that we have an entire generation or two now that have absolutely no mechanical ability whatsoever and aren’t interested in it in the least. I’m continually amazed by it in our young people. Boys especially.


38 posted on 06/16/2013 2:18:45 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

When Work Disappears: What do we do with people whose livelihoods are destroyed?

Well... What about Obamacare and the “Death Panels”. I think that makes it obvious what the left plans on doing.


39 posted on 06/16/2013 2:21:21 PM PDT by The Working Man
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To: central_va

I have never been formally trained or employed doing it but fabricating and repairing little things is one activity that brings pleasure to me — like a little clamp I made for a motorcycle this morning. Wish I had invented the Easy-Out screw extractor — which I need for another project right now.


40 posted on 06/16/2013 2:21:55 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
When Work Disappears: What do we do with people whose livelihoods are destroyed?

Bring in another 30 million or so immigrants who would otherwise have entered ILLEGALLY. Then with the 30 million or so ILLEGAL immigrants already here.. make the whole lot of them legal and eligible for all things public support. We are a nation of immigrants on public support.

41 posted on 06/16/2013 2:37:59 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: Twotone

Our problem isn’t luddites. It’s a government that makes going into business for oneself almost impossible.


Repeat LOUD and OFTEN.................


42 posted on 06/16/2013 2:38:55 PM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

What’s wrong with “fiddling” around on the internet?


43 posted on 06/16/2013 2:41:02 PM PDT by Paladin2 (;-))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Well, this problem certainly couldn’t have a single, bloody thing to do with the government extorting so much protection money from small businesses that they can’t stay in business and go under, taking away god knows how many entry-level jobs young men like me use.

The cafe I’ve been working at for the past four years is closing down this Thursday or Friday. From working there, I was able to learn how to cook, take and serve food and drink orders, attend the State Fire Academy, become EMT certified, and earn the respect of both myself and others...and it enrages me that the people who did all that have given their heart and soul to their business and are now being shut down so dear leader and his @$$hole buddies can bribe voters to stay in power a few more years and try and kick the can a little further down the road.

So help me, people who put dear leader in office had better pray he isn’t the one who finally smashes us into the bottom of the cliff (we went over long ago), because without his goon squads, there won’t be anyone or anything to prevent them from getting what they deserve.


44 posted on 06/16/2013 2:48:08 PM PDT by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: RWB Patriot

Oh, and to add insult to injury, the owners are walking away from their business not with a decent pay-off, but thousands of dollars in debt.

FUBO!


45 posted on 06/16/2013 2:49:35 PM PDT by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: headstamp 2

“And we are about to import another 30 million of them”

The final victory of Cloward-Piven.


46 posted on 06/16/2013 2:51:19 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Jim Noble
And we are about to import another 30 million of them”

The shAmnesty is going to create the Cloward_Piven Army.

47 posted on 06/16/2013 2:53:36 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
They will lose political support if you have one group of people paying taxes, and a different group of people who can expect to live their entire life on the dole.

Only true when the people paying taxes have the ability to outvote those "liv(ing) their entire life on the dole."

Once the tipping point has been reached (and at a national level it has here in the US) political support will expand, and continue to do so right up until economic collapse.
48 posted on 06/16/2013 2:53:42 PM PDT by tanknetter
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Elections have consequences. The voters said, via their votes, which route they wished to travel on November 6, 2012. Perhaps the Good Lord will honor their choice,


49 posted on 06/16/2013 2:53:44 PM PDT by sport
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To: Secret Agent Man

Don’t knock knick-knacks.

I developed a line of sewing notions in 1985. I sell mostly wholesale. They earn me a living and have a low price point. Yes, like any business, even hand manufacturing has problems related to the government, alphabet agencies and Green enviro-nannies. No, it isn’t a 6-figure income, but it has been secure throughout the Long Recessionary Depression. I continue on at age 70+ and foresee that I will be able to continue unless I become totally invalided.

I am currently working up prototypes for a second,
retail-only line using the same production process and materials, but aimed at a different market. It also has the advantage of needing less production assistance than my main product.

We all do what we can, as we must, to survive.

Note that any repatriation of major industry will benefit the unions and the Dems.


50 posted on 06/16/2013 2:54:42 PM PDT by reformedliberal
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