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When economic patriotism died
World Net Daily ^ | 5/02/2013 | Buchanan, Patrick

Posted on 05/03/2013 12:00:05 PM PDT by Sheapdog

When economic patriotism died Pat Buchanan agrees with the pope about ' the dark side of globalism'

“This is called slave labor,” said Pope Francis.

The Holy Father was referring to the $40 a month paid to apparel workers at that eight-story garment factory in Bangladesh that collapsed on top of them, killing more than 400.

“Not paying a just wage … focusing exclusively on the balance books, on financial statements, only looking at personal profit. That goes against God!”

The pope is describing the dark side of globalism.

Why is Bangladesh, after China, the second-largest producer of apparel in the world? Why are there 4,000 garment factories in that impoverished country which, a few decades ago, had almost none?

Because the Asian subcontinent is where Western brands – from Disney to Gap to Benetton – can produce cheapest. They can do so because women and children will work for $1.50 a day crammed into factories that are rickety firetraps, where health and safety regulations are nonexistent.

This is what capitalism, devoid of a conscience, will produce.

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: economicpatriotism; economy; freetrade; globalism; trade
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Much better thank you.

Though we disagree.

I used to be in your camp, believe it or not.


101 posted on 05/04/2013 9:26:15 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
Anyone who wants to be in charge of what happens with a job is going to have to well, hire someone. 

Or move.

Work with me here.  Hiring someone creates a job.  Moving doesn't create a job.  We still together on this?

102 posted on 05/04/2013 9:41:51 AM PDT by expat_panama
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To: expat_panama

That was a good-natured reference to your own situation.

:D

Sorry.


103 posted on 05/04/2013 9:46:59 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

The invisible hand of the free market, including free trade, (relatively) creates opportunities and jobs that are not obvious. You can’t pinpoint the jobs that result from that freedom.

Meanwhile, a plant moving overseas creates losses that are obvious and immediate. So you pinpoint the very people impacted.

However, you have to believe in freedom to understand that in the long run, it’s going to create far more than it destroys - but creative destruction is part of every successful economy in the history of the world. There is no way around the fact that a belief in protectionism is a belief in some form of centralized planning, while a belief in liberty is the opposite.


104 posted on 05/04/2013 9:47:39 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I understand all that. I really do.

The problem is the world does not operate that way, except to a point.

America operates one way. China operates another way.

Should be, America operates in a pro-American way. While meanwhile China operates in a pro-China way.

That is not what is currently happening.

Everyone is on China’s side.

Americans. Chinese. Everyone.


105 posted on 05/04/2013 9:57:35 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: Wolfie
"If there’s no need for economic patriotism, then there’s no need for patriotism of any kind. "

The best comment on Friday. Thanks for defending American citizens.

106 posted on 05/04/2013 9:58:51 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

No, your conclusion is wrong. Pro America is pro liberty - America is not “one company” so there is no “pro America” way except individual liberty. China will do what China will do, and ditto the rest of the world, and the only way to allow more Americans more prosperity and more opportunity is to maximize liberty so that American consumers, businesses and workers can react to whatever the conditions are IN TOTAL LIBERTY.

Anything else is central planning. By definition. Your flaw is that you look at America and China as monolithic competitors. It’s not nearly that simple.


107 posted on 05/04/2013 10:04:23 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: ex-snook

except that you have a bass ackward understanding of economic patriotism. Liberty is patriotism. Anything else is central planning.


108 posted on 05/04/2013 10:05:15 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

“Until you do one of those two things, I dont’ see any cred on this issue. I’ve never employed anyone over seas, but I’ve employed thousands of people in my lifetime, and I can easily see why jobs leave. I really do not think you understand why they do.”

I’ve enjoyed your book very much, as well as many of your posts. And I certainly also understand WHY jobs leave.

Where we part company is that I think off shoring labor should either be illegal or heavily taxed.

The deteriorating economic, social, and spiritual condition of our middle 3/5 is accelerating, and will destroy our society if not reversed. Men need work. Without work, they become essentially worthless and prey to many vices.

The plague that destroyed Detroit, Camden, and so many other cities is beginning to devour whites as well. When the condition of men on the middle 3/5 equals that of the men of Detroit, the nation will be unlivable.

I know all about the unions and the regulations. But they are a lesser evil than the future that globalization is going to deliver.

Sorry to disagree with someone who can write the way you do.


109 posted on 05/04/2013 10:06:30 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
"That is not what is currently happening. Everyone is on China’s side. Americans. Chinese. Everyone.

Hey, not me. I'm still on America's side. Thanks for your support of Americans. The bottom line of all this discussion is that almost everything you buy is made with labor somewhere else. That's was government to government free trade has done to our economy. Romney said there are 24,000,000 million Americans looking for work. And we spend trillions on people in other countries. No wonder Democrats are elected, the GOP really is the stupid party.

110 posted on 05/04/2013 10:11:56 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Jim Noble

Thanks for your kind words.

Now where we part company is on “globalization.” Saying that globalization is costing American jobs is like saying that oxygen is costing jobs. America cannot stop globalization. We either participate, or we all lose. Another place we part company is on what will or will not cost American jobs on net. Again, the jobs lost to off shoring are obvious and can be counted by name. The jobs gained by more freedom are not namable.....but it comes down to this: you either believe that decisions made in self interests by millions of people in liberty is the best way to allocate resources, or you believe that bureaucrats in Washington can somehow hit the secret sauce recipe of centrally planned winners and losers, tariffs, taxes ,etc.

I’m sorry. I don’t think the central secret sauce has ever worked in history.


111 posted on 05/04/2013 10:14:04 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
you either believe that decisions made in self interests by millions of people in liberty is the best way to allocate resources, or you believe that bureaucrats in Washington can somehow hit the secret sauce recipe of centrally planned winners and losers, tariffs, taxes ,etc.

There is a third alternative.

112 posted on 05/04/2013 10:15:59 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: ex-snook

Hang tough.

We’ll win them over yet. :D


113 posted on 05/04/2013 10:20:22 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: C. Edmund Wright
"I’m sorry. I don’t think the central secret sauce has ever worked in history."

True with how GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT free trade deals are put together.

114 posted on 05/04/2013 10:24:21 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

This is why no centrally planned economy EVER EVER EVER works. No planning can equal the net effect of millions and millions of hiring, firing, buying, selling, pricing, shipping, etc, decisions made by the populace.

that is a key point. this and other similar thoughts I’ve had need to be put so the regular dummy understands it . it should prove to them that government/socailism can never work .a democrat believes that a single gov beaurocrat can run the millions of real time simultaneous transactions of the free market ( see all at the same time) which a human can’t. also well I’ll repost as I am have to go.


115 posted on 05/04/2013 10:28:23 AM PDT by Democrat_media (D's & Mary Landrieu voted 4 UN to take away our 2nd amendment rights)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

This is why no centrally planned economy EVER EVER EVER works. No planning can equal the net effect of millions and millions of hiring, firing, buying, selling, pricing, shipping, etc, decisions made by the populace.

that is a key point. this and other similar thoughts I’ve had need to be put so the regular dummy ( an average voter)understands it . it should prove to them that government/socailism can never work .a democrat believes that a single gov beaurocrat can run the millions of real time simultaneous transactions of the free market ( see all at the same time) which a human can’t. also well I’ll repost as I am have to go.


116 posted on 05/04/2013 10:28:57 AM PDT by Democrat_media (D's & Mary Landrieu voted 4 UN to take away our 2nd amendment rights)
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To: ex-snook

You have a point, but in the end, that points to simpler and freer trade with less policy and less deals. When in doubt, err on the side of liberty for American workers, businesses, consumers, investors, etc.


117 posted on 05/04/2013 10:30:16 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Jim Noble

Okay, you have my attention....


118 posted on 05/04/2013 10:30:57 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Democrat_media
No planning can equal the net effect of millions and millions of hiring, firing, buying, selling, pricing, shipping, etc, decisions made by the populace.

that is a key point. this and other similar thoughts I’ve had need to be put so the regular dummy ( an average voter)understands it . it should prove to them that government/socailism can never work .a democrat believes that a single gov beaurocrat can run the millions of real time simultaneous transactions of the free market ( see all at the same time) which a human can’t. also well I’ll repost as I am have to go.

And this is what the anti traders refuse to understand, that trade restrix are liberal big government central planning tenets by definition. They happen to LIKE this kind of central planning because they favor its constituency, which is the specific workers who lost jobs. It's still central planning, and like EVERY BIT OF CENTRAL PLANNING SINCE THE DAWN OF MAN it stops untold millions of opportunities from every coming about. Again, you either believe in liberty or central planning....and there's no other way around this debate. And if you believe in central planning, for whatever group's benefit, then you are an economic liberal.

119 posted on 05/04/2013 10:34:32 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I’m smoking chicken and ribs at the moment, it’ll have to wait.


120 posted on 05/04/2013 10:37:49 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Jim Noble

Priorities indeed.....enjoy, I’ll check back later.


121 posted on 05/04/2013 10:38:41 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I’m smoking chicken and ribs at the moment, it’ll have to wait.


122 posted on 05/04/2013 11:09:58 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: NVDave

Welfare causes terrorism.


123 posted on 05/04/2013 6:07:35 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: dfwgator
My friend lives in Mexico and is a liberal. She took me to see just how much damage MNCs were doing. We went to an indian family - Mayan - to see how “badly” they lived.

The husband worked for a maquiladora and wasn't home when we visited. They had two toddlers and were in their twenties. The wife welcomed us in.

They lived in a stone-built 15’ x 6’ oval with a thatched roof. It was one room and they slept hammocks hung from the walls. During the day the hammocks were put up. The floor was dirt. The back door opened onto a small yard with a couple of chickens walking around. The husband had suspended a tarp from the house into the yard and extended their living area. Under the tarp was a jerry-rigged stove pipe leading to a little barbeque-type stove.

They were really poor. My friend's beaming and asks the wife about their life here. The woman replies that it is miserable, but then the maquiladora came. Now her husband has work, before he had none and they were at the mercy of either the local church or government.

She then showed off her newly electrified home with a real outlet. They had a little tv and she was thrilled with the tarp, chickens and barbecue. She didn't have chickens before and they provided eggs and meat. The tarp area was a dream come true for her. She used to have to cook inside the house and it would be hot and smokey. At night, it was so hard to sleep. Now, she can cook outside and there isn't any smoke.

She loved the maquiladora and thanked God for it. My friend, her deeply held notions of US capitalistic imperialism dashed by an honest Mayan housewife, didn't talk the whole drive back. True story.

124 posted on 05/04/2013 8:10:48 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

Great story.


125 posted on 05/04/2013 8:34:15 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: NVDave

*High-5!*

Then bounce the rubble.


126 posted on 05/04/2013 8:34:35 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: 1010RD
a liberal. She took me to see just how much damage MNCs were doing.

Reminds me of my liberal sister complaining how I "made" my employee work on Saturdays & paid him just a little over 1$/hr.  The thing is the guy enjoys a 5min. commute from his 3 bedroom home on a 3,000 sf lot, (no property taxes and fone, elect. water, sewage are < $20/mo.).  His job benefits include medical, retirement, school thru univ. for the 3 kids.

Liberal min. wage laws make his lifestyle illegal in the US.  The leftists may actually think they care about others but they're so out of touch that they end up doing so much harm.

127 posted on 05/05/2013 5:58:44 AM PDT by expat_panama
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To: 1010RD

And whatever this MNC was producing was no doubt being made a lot more affordable for millions of American consumers.....it’s called commerce done in freedom in each party’s best interest. WHAT A CONCEPT.


128 posted on 05/05/2013 4:23:48 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Jim Noble

You get it!


129 posted on 05/05/2013 4:42:39 PM PDT by dennisw (too much of a good thing is a bad thing - Joe Pine)
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To: dennisw

You betcha. Help America first, not the new world order.


130 posted on 05/05/2013 4:56:46 PM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

So with all your “liberty” that you promote where do you see American job growth in the future. I see free trade as killing millions of American jobs in the last 30 years. Since you promote economic liberty as a cure all how will it cure the present unemployment rate. What new jobs will be opening up for men in particular. Women like those feudal office hierarchies of paper shufflers but men like to produce more tangible items. Like real estate in a Federal Reserve ginned up bubble

What I see is computerization, automation and robots destroying guy type jobs with no decent replacement jobs down the pike. My take is guys like you promote liberty and free trade in the abstract. But in the real world those great concepts solve nothing for the great American middle class and what well paying jobs they will have in the future. By promoting globalization you have only hastened this decline


131 posted on 05/05/2013 4:57:05 PM PDT by dennisw (too much of a good thing is a bad thing - Joe Pine)
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Comment #132 Removed by Moderator

To: ex-snook

I am an economic nationalist same as the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans are today. I want what is good for American workers and consumers. If free trade is bad for the American worker then I am against it. Americas strong heritage was and is as a producer nation meaning the worker and producer comes first. The consumer comes second. Today we have a reversal where consumerism (much of it idiotic) is promoted as the greater good and what better way to “consume” more more more than to allow in cheap Chinese/Asian goods which has funded their rise to technological supremacy in many areas. These days a lot of this consumption is Gov’t funded by Obama type welfare and disability payments and the Federal Reserve creating money from nothing to buy up USG debt

Generally speaking production is what guys do and consumption and comfort is what women do and are more interested in.


133 posted on 05/05/2013 5:09:38 PM PDT by dennisw (too much of a good thing is a bad thing - Joe Pine)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Who said I was a central planner? Straw dog by the way. Look at American history where we were very libertarian within our borders yet the Federal Gov’t was mostly funded via tariffs. I am talking before 1913 prior to the Income Tax and prior to creation of the Federal Reserve. Banks ran kind of wild issuing their own bank notes and currencies. How libertarian is that!!!Kinda cool, eh? We were uber libertarian within our borders

How do you “liberty” promoters explain all that. BTW the USG other sources of funding was alcohol and tobacco taxes collected by the Treasury Dept by the predecessor to the ATF


134 posted on 05/05/2013 5:17:22 PM PDT by dennisw (too much of a good thing is a bad thing - Joe Pine)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

You stand against human nature because human nature is hard wired to be tribal and clannish. The Muslims and Chinese know this. The tribes and nations that stick together will defeat the free floating atomization you find in free trade/open borders libertarian nations and America is one of them


135 posted on 05/05/2013 5:21:40 PM PDT by dennisw (too much of a good thing is a bad thing - Joe Pine)
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To: Sheapdog
Matbe because $1.50 a day indoors in a factory is better than 50 cents a week working in the fields?

I live in a country that has the high tariffs that Patsy dreams of. If you can tolerate $70-$80 for a pair of Levis (that's how much they cost down here), be my guest, Amurka...

136 posted on 05/05/2013 5:22:32 PM PDT by Clemenza ("History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil governm)
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To: dennisw

With due respect, your historical anologies are absurd (there’s a lot of things in 1913 that were totally different moron) and your understanding of human nature is psychotic. I’ll stand with Reagan, Sowell, and Milton F - you can stand by your self and your union buddies.


137 posted on 05/05/2013 6:43:50 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

You can “stand” with whomever you chose to glom onto by citing them on your ride on the oblivion express. You live in the world of glorious cloud theories. Keep typing over and over again “liberty” because this cloud theory is all you have. Meanwhile back in the real world... You will be taxed more and assets taken by the Obama-bots to support their armies of the unemployed your free trade theories have produced.

I told you to pick your poison and tariffs are the better one. The better form of taxation if we must have one. Not to worry though my friend. You blindly repeat the same conformist economic twaddle taught in our great universities to incoming young skulls full of mush. But at your age, by now you should know better


138 posted on 05/05/2013 7:01:50 PM PDT by dennisw (too much of a good thing is a bad thing - Joe Pine)
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Comment #139 Removed by Moderator

To: Wolfie
Protect Americans in war and in trade.


140 posted on 05/06/2013 8:44:13 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: 1rudeboy
When Pat Buchanan says “economic patriotism,” he really means “national socialism.”

That's right, only notorious Nazis like William Taft, Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Abraham Lincoln, John Quincy Adams, John Adams, and George Washington supported tariffs.

141 posted on 05/06/2013 9:29:46 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: dennisw
I haven't read through this thread in its entirety yet, but I'm willing to bet that the "tariffs caused the Great Depression" line (which even free traders like Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan admit was a myth) has been repeated more than a few times.

Historical facts speak more loudly than any theories, and the claim that tariffs are bad for our economy is scuttled by the fact that the US had its highest growth rates and greatest industrial development when tariffs were high and other forms of taxation were low or non-existent. Now, correlation doesn't prove causation here, but it does prove that tariffs are a less onerous economic burden than other forms of government revenue.

142 posted on 05/06/2013 9:33:16 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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