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To: Wuli; Sopater
"Lastly, I do not find Yeshua ever calling for his followers to go demand that they be given the power of Caesar’s sword - secular government - so they could use it to extract what wealth they chose from their neighbors to fulfill His call that we should be charitable to the poor."

No you don't. But, like it or not, we in America find ourselves in the position of having the power of Caesar's sword. We are in the position of the King or the Ruler. "We the People" are the rulers of this great land.

With that comes all the responsibility of rulership. And our reign as rulers will live or die based in part on how we treat the poor and needy as rulers.

If we shirk our responsibility and say charity has no place in government and trod down the poor all the while claiming as an excuse that Christian individuals also have that responsibility, then I expect that our reign will come to an end.

And once again, we don't need to be stupid about it. We don't need to allow fraud or encourage fraud. We don't need to encourage dependency. We can't give more than we can afford. And we need to maintain a strong economy in order to help others.

Besides, Social Security and Medicare and most unemployment is not truly charity, but rather poorly managed government insurance programs for which people paid insurance premiums. Medicaid, food stamps, and probably a myriad of smaller programs are charity.

87 posted on 07/12/2012 8:59:40 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN
Medicaid, food stamps, and probably a myriad of smaller programs are charity.

You are insanely stuck on the false belief that government programs are a net positive. These programs are NOT charity at all -- they are out and out welfare handouts.

I personally know of a number of people who are scamming the Food Stamp and WIC programs. They have relatives inside the system that tell them how to do it to get the benefits. I am sure this is repeated over and over throughout the government These are people making good money.

The vast majority of the money goes to people that are in no way suffering as they did, say in the depression.

Charity at it's root is a voluntary giving of one's time or money to help others truly in need.

Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc were constructed for two reasons -- to increase the Democratic voter base and increase the power of the State.

Any rational person who cherishes I Constitution should be appalled at any program at the Federal level dispensing so called private charity It goes against everything our Founders believed in.

89 posted on 07/12/2012 11:44:58 AM PDT by sand88
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To: DannyTN

“And our reign as rulers will live or die based in part on how we treat the poor and needy as rulers.”

“We” are NOT the government.

It is an instrument of power we form to SERVE us, it is not “us”.

The greatest “us” of America is the free and open society, NOT the government.

Yes, “we” may be judged by how well we treat the poor.

The main ingredient, the first ingredient, the most important ingredient in that “we” is the free and open society, NOT the government.

No, that does not mean there is no role for government in ‘charity’, but it does mean that government is not the first order of that business; nor is it ONLY because of what our Federal government does or does not do that any such judgement would stand. Nor does it mean that just because the government activity is not what someone thinks it ought to be, that does not mean that the greater society is remiss.

We have a Constitution written to establish LIMITED central government NOT in order to prevent tyranny from a king, but from the very democratic government it was founding, and even from some “democratic majority” of us if need be.

Why? Because tyranny from government can only come from kings and dictators? No; because the power of government in anyone hands can become a tyranny.

Thus, in society and the social realm is not to government that we should look first, but last.


110 posted on 07/13/2012 3:45:30 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: DannyTN
If you know the Bible, you know that God never intended for his people to have a human king. He was to be their only king, but the people rebelled, so He gave them one of their own to be king.

Now you are saying we should put ourselves collectively as king? As Christians, we are not to usurp God's place or over rule His command for us. He told us to love one another. He told us to take care of the widows and orphans. We, as followers of Christ are to do God's will and give to the poor. He did not want us to wash our hands of the matter like Pilate and let the govt. do the job for us.

An impersonal govt. can never deal with those in need as well as loving people who are close to the needy and their situations. Stop begging for people to let the govt. become their God. That is the very problem we have in this world today. People would rather put their faith in govt. than in God.

Look to the one who is God and carry out His will. Do as He would have us do. Let God have all the glory. Don't pretend and make govt. the new sovereign ruler and provider that God really is.

I Samuel 8:4-8

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. (NIV)

The only one we should ever look to in order to provide our needs is God, not man, not govt., not an earthly king.
111 posted on 07/14/2012 1:34:05 AM PDT by Waryone
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