Posted on 02/07/2012 5:37:14 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
[BIG snip]
Santorum's ad and his Op-Ed, meant to mock Gingrich, in reality can only distinctly not help Santorum's struggling campaign. Gingrich will surely make the inevitable -- and correct -- connection between Santorum's ad and a serious attack on the Reagan space legacy -- and the dreams of America itself. "We'll continue our quest in space…. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue," said President Reagan that tragic January night. Well, no they won't. Not if Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney have anything to say about it. "I promise," says Santorum.
Worse, whether Santorum's staff understands it or not the mocking Santorum ad and Op-Ed is an insult to the memory of seven extraordinarily brave Americans who 26 years ago this past January 28th gave their lives to continue the American journey into space. A journey, as Ronald Reagan well knew, into the future that America has always been, and will always be, about.
Former NASA executive Charles Miller, in a recent Wall Street Journal article, not only praised Gingrich's vision he outlined ways to return to space while well acknowledging the nation's current financial problems. In short, Mr. Miller, like Gingrich, embraced not only Reagan's vision but used another quality of Reagan's -- imagination -- to answer the unimaginative negativity that is now surprisingly advocated by Santorum and Romney.
....Stop, Senator. Stop.
If you really wish to sit at the Resolute desk, a literal, physical reminder of the human dream of exploration -- be resolute. Show some imagination. Vision. Don't play Herbert Hoover.
The City on a Shining Hill is the place to reach for the stars.
Not a place to be mocked by a radio commercial or a dopey Op-Ed that signals a crabbed, timid, fainthearted, decidedly un-conservative and un-American state of mind.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
No, it wouldn't. Go back and watch that Apollo Spacejunk video I posted...it explains why.
Remember in 1976 Soviet pilot Viktor Belenko defected to Japan with a brand new MiG25 fighter/interceptor, and it was reverse engineered and sent back to Moscow (in boxes mind you) in just a couple of weeks. Granted the Saturn V is a much larger item, but it’s no more sophisticated than a state of the art fighter jet designed 15 years later!
First off, the USAF did NOT reverse engineer Belenko's MiG-25, but simply disassembled and analyzed it. In the end, they found out that the MiG-25 was mostly a piece of crap, and that the F-15, which had just entered service, was far superior in technology.
And the Saturn V rocket was far more complex and sophisticated than the crudely designed and built MiG-25. There is no comparison.
To claim there is nobody that knows the whole system is a red herring as well, since no single person knew the whole system in the first place.
Von Braun and his inner circle knew how it all went together. That's a documented fact. But they're all dead now.
Using modern tools and techniques, an upgraded Saturn V could likely be on a launchpad within a couple of years after starting a re-development program, since the hard work of determining whether it can fly has already been done. It’s just a matter of putting it back together, with modern materials and technology.
Can't be done, for the reasons previously cited.
Then again, does the determination and zeal for discovery still exist? If not, we’re all just wasting our breath and time discussing what-ifs.
No, it doesn't, and yes we're wasting our breath here.
2.) The Prize Method. State a dollar amount prize for the completion of a particular stated goal. Allow private companies to compete. Pay said amount when stated goal is completed.
So you're saying that rather than spending $100B or so to put a man on the moon in 1969, we should have just offered a $4B prize and had some private entity do it? Well, if you're positive that would have had the same result....
If, say, your stated goal was an operational Moon Base (complete with launch systems, transfer craft, landing craft and sustainable environmental controls at the Moon Base), and the prize were, say $20 billion, you just got yourself a monster bargain compared to the NASA bureaucratic method of space acheivement, which, for example, has pissed away more than $20 billion on the Ares Heavy Lifter and hasn’t even developed a prototype, only drawings.
What if private companies look at that, say "$20B?? Are you kidding? It would cost a hell of a lot more than that to build a moon colony. No thanks."
Where do we go to collect on Newt's promise then? And if you think that I'm being unfair, are there a bunch of reputable companies of which I'm unaware who have come out since Newt's speech and said "yup, we'll do it for $20B"?
This is like Steve Martin's old routine on how to get a million dollars and not pay any taxes. "First, get a million dollars. Then...."
Did you know that an estimated ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS in American capital is parked overseas, held back by the captial gains tax in this country? Gingrich has promised to change that situation.
There is great risk involved in space exploration and no reason to go into space unless it is profitable. As things exist right now, we have an international treaty that blocks us from doing so, one the Chinese are ignoring.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
New Santorum ad hits Gingrich on his idea for a moon colony
Friday, February 03, 2012 12:05:49 PM · 69 of 210
frithguild to SatinDoll
Quote Frithguild:
Nobody here gets it.
Asteroid 1986 DA, just to pick one, contains over 10,000 tons of gold and 100,000 tons of platinum. All of the metals in that body, if delivered in 2010, would have had a value of over $25 trillion. The Moon could contain strikes of similar value. Why has nobody sought this profit?
Nobody looks at the legal blockade to extraterrestrial profits, because they don’t even know it exists. The Johnson administration managed to export the principals of socialism to the entirety of space:
“The exploration and use of outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries, irrespective of their degree of economic or scientific development, and shall be the province of all mankind.” Article I of The Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, Including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies of 1967.
Ferdinand and Isabella gave Columbus a few sheckles, but it took quite some time before finance evolved enough to put together profit making ventures that yielded boatloads of gold. It is time for us to free space from socialism and allow the cornerston to free enterprise - private property.
I do not favor any large government expenditures for Solyndra on the Moon. I just wish that when the debate tries to revive the excitement of Apollo, that SOMEBODY would say the Outer Space Treaty makes for profit investment IMPOSSIBLE.
Withdraw from the Treaty.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
One average-sized near earth asteroid contains enough platinum group metals to equal the entire world’s gross annual product. That means trillions of dollars each!
There are international conglomerates ready and willing to take the risks and launch into space today, just to reap the potential wealth that can be had by mining, smelting and manufacturing in space.
Five hundred years ago, the world’s two super powers were China’s Ming Dynasty and the Ottoman Empire (in present-day Turkey), and Spain had just begun sending ships to the Western Hemisphere.
If someone had predicted that in the future there would be untold wealth for billions of people, all inititated by an industrial revolution begun in what was then a rustic Europe and a wilderness in North America, that person would have been considered insane.
We’ve possessed the technology to mine, smelt ore, and manufacture in the zero gravity vacuum of space for 35 years, yet that treaty has prevented us from doing so.
Romney and Santorum have no vision for the future. Gingrich has said he will get government out of the way of business and encourage space exploration, which will lead to another industrial revolution.
Thanks for the article. I couldn’t believe that Santorum and Romney were so uninformed on this issue that they ridiculed it. It just proves that they don’t have the depth of knowledge necessary to be President.
See post #103. There is unimaginable wealth in near earth orbit asteroids, out there for the taking. Businesses are always willing to take risk if the rewards are great and unhindered by government.
We need a President with the intelligence and knowledge to recognize that fact. Neither Romney nor Santorum fit that description.
Wow, well, gee, then why does there need to be a $20B prize at all if there are trillions just laying there for the grabbing? Or is it the difference between theory and practice?
I mean, let's be serious here for a moment, and assume all that stuff is true about that asteroid. Not regarding its miniral composition, which I assume is accurate, but regarding the implicit assumptions about it being economically and technologically possible to mine, recover, and transport that stuff at the present time.
If there is that much money to be made, why wouldn't some enterprising private company have offered to go get that stuff, give 20% of the value to the U.N. or whomever, and then keep all the massive profits for itself? Why hasn't some private entity at least offered or publicly explored such an idea, if there truly is such a massive amount of money to be made?
What part of “international treaty” did you miss?
Try being less a whiney satirist and strive for accuracy. You’ll have a far greater chance at convincing people your facts make sense. But you can skip using you arguments on me.
My family’s ancestors came here in the late 1600s - we knew that freedom meant risk and the rewards, if you survived, were well worth those risks. There are millions more like me in this nation willing to go into space. As for you, stay in your easy chair.
OK, you are going to make this fun for me now.
You may not of seen this #65
So to get to the point, 10,000 tons of anything on the moon is completely worthless to those of us on earth. Why? it would be way-way more expensive to try to bring it back here than any value it would have back here on earth, and I am not talking the initial investment costs of that 100s of billions but just the reoccurring energy costs for travel. There is no Costcos discount rocket fuel pump waiting for us on the moon.
Anyone investing in such a silly idea would be ruined. That is why the government is the only one that will do stuff like that, their job is to make other peoples money disappear and they are very good at it.
Next Newt will propose putting windmills on the moon to charge up batteries to power the rocket motors to carry all the stuff back. This is where democracy can become dangerous. It is how we got to be slaves of ethanol.
“There is no Costcos discount rocket fuel pump waiting for us on the moon.”
WOW! You are so-o-o-o behind in technology.
Do you know what a rail gun is? It uses mag-lev electrical power to propel progectiles very long distances.
The Moon’s surface is a great place to utilyze solar power to generate electricity. A type of mag-lev launcher can be used to prople payloads out into space. Since the Moon’s gravity is so much less than on Earth, it is doable.
Too bad you are not using your brain to solve problems. In fact, you sound as though you are a college graduate. Universities teach what you can’t do, rather than teaching students how to think and solve problems.
It is what is on the moon that we DON'T have to lift from Earth.
WATER. Water=life support (breaks into oxygen and hydrogen).
Launch from Earth's deep gravity well, a majority of the weight (cost) is fuel.
Hydrogen and Oxygen combine to make the most powerful rocket fuel known.
The water-ice is located in craters near the poles where there are areas of almost permanent SUNLIGHT (energy).
The moon is where we will learn how to use off-planet resources to expand into the universe.
The moon is where we can base assets to service our national defense and economic assets that reside in high orbits and where we can assure that our system of government leads the way.
well, in all fairness, the gubmint has regulated space travel and beyond and limited who could do it...
the right visionaries with enuff bankroll *could* figgure out a way to git-r-done...
speaking of enuff bankroll, i believe we should take a small *contribution* from everybody and use that to form an agency to go get those mineral...if we all pitch in, we can dilute the price of gold & platinum by next tuesday...
the moon gets solar panels, and we could also dig a resevoir and damn itfor hydro...
None of it, which is why I brought up the point about a private entity trying to cut a deal.
The problem is that you want to assume, without a shred of evidence, that the necessary private funds to finance a moon colony by 2020 would come flying from the private sector if we abandoned that treaty. But if that treaty was the only real obstacle, you would have heard a lot more buzz in the private, for-profit sector about doing this. There would have been proposals to negotiate something under that treaty, or at least calls for the U.S. to abandon it.
But there's been none of that at all. You've got the scientists saying it is possible, which of course it is. But what scientists say is possible is worlds apart from private entities being willing to bankroll something of this size. And again, the elements of the private sector capable of bankrolling something like this have been silent. For someone who respects the savvy of capitalists, that sets off a red flag on the feasibility of Newt's claim.
My family’s ancestors came here in the late 1600s - we knew that freedom meant risk and the rewards, if you survived, were well worth those risks.
The fact that your ancestors came here in the 1600's doesn't give you any particular knowledge or perspective. They came here -- you didn't, and that gives you no more particular insight into this country than anyone else. Likewise, the fact that I served this country in combat doesn't give me any particularized special understanding on space exploration either.
There are millions more like me in this nation willing to go into space.
Hey, I'd love to go into space too. But there's that issue of cost. So as long as you are willing to pay for it out of your own pockets, more power to you. Just don't try to finance your dreams with other peoples' money.
LOL, you are making me smile some more. I am taking a liking to you.
Real life is being able to accurately assess tradeoffs so you don't spend $100 to get $1 in receipts resulting in the creditors taking over the first week. That is what a real business, something Newt knows little about, must do to survive. Newt's whole career experience is working on government funded enterprises where you don't have worry about costs vs benefits(profit), the costs are free when the money is printed.
Once you know how to evaluate tradeoffs you can easily tell when a pied piper is leading you off a cliff.
“You’ve got the scientists saying it is possible,..”
I have no special power over scientists or their ideas.
The Third Industrial Revolution (1975), written by G.Harry Stine, does a very good job at proposing the exploitation of space.
Google ‘asteroid mining’ for the mind-blowing details.
There were nay-sayers during the 19th century who mocked the idea that anyone would want to possess land in what is today the state of Oklahoma. The mass of humanity that rushed out there to claim land surprised many critics back east. And then oil was discovered there.
As for your claim that no large corporations are interested in going out into space, you’re wrong. But I’ll let you find that out on your own, though I doubt you’ll make the attempt.
Stay in your comfy easy chair. No one will miss you.
There is a major flaw in your 'water = fuel' idea. Hint, we have plenty more water here on earth than the moon.
Who are you, Buck Rogers? James T. Kirk? Major Tom?
Yeah, Major Tom. It all makes sense now.
Did you not comprehend the fact that because the water is NOT on the Earth, that that is the reason it is valuable and useful and game changing?
Geeze...
Re-read Comment #110 for content and clarity.
How so?
When we colonize the moon, we likely will discover the remains of a superior civilization that will have figured out cold fusion, and our astronauts can then build cold fusion reactors to power eveything, and they'll build even more spaceships to explore the rest of the galaxy and even the solar system (sic)!
Some people just have no vision.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.