Plague Victims Discovered After 1500 Years (Justinian)

Adnkronos ^ | 4-10-2008

[Jacquerie]

Magna Carta - 1215
Black Death - 1348

No connection.

[MeanWestTexan]

That was just the “big one.” There were a series of disease outbreaks since the 500s.

[Jacquerie]

So which outbreak brought about Magna Carta?

[MeanWestTexan]

It came back with the Fourth Crusade from Constantinople shortly after 1204.

That same year King John lost Normandy and there were all sorts of intra-Christian fighting that chewed up the abled bodied men, in addition to disease.

I don’t know if that plague got a name.

[Jacquerie]

Fine. What did it have to do with Magna Carta?

[MeanWestTexan]

Well, for one the plague ravaged the military in Constantinople, which King John sought to re-enforce for various reasons, but largely because he got his ass kicked in Normandy.

Raising money to to join the crusade, he oppressed the barons with scutage (tax paid by a knight in lieu of military service), the selling of women (John made a regular traffic in the sale of wards, maids of 14 and widows alike), forest stealing, and taking children hostage for ransom (he slaughtered 28 sons of Welsh hostages).

These abuses pissed off the barons sufficiently.

Second, people forget much of the MC had to do with Jewish rights -— the Jews became pretty strong numerically and financially at the time because the Jews were largely untouched by the plague (we were in league with the Devil, you know -— or it could be keeping Levitical cleanliness kept rats at reasonable numbers).

Third, simple balance of power of rural (less plague) vs. city (more plague).

[Jacquerie]

Blow smoke somewhere else.

[raygun]

Its highly doubtful that John spoke "English". He may have spoken Anglo-Saxon early Middle English. Maybe. Undoubtedly he spoke French and knew Latin. The latter being the language of official business pretty much everywhere, and the former a result of the Norman Conquest in 1066.

Here's an example of the colloquial vervnacular at the time:

Ich was in one sumere dale, in one suthe diyhele hale, iherde ich holde grete tale an hule and one niyhtingale.

That plait was stif & starc & strong, sum wile softe & lud among; an aither ayhen other sval, & let that [vue]le mod ut al. & either seide of otheres custe

that alre-worste that hi wuste: & hure & hure of othere[s] songe hi holde plaiding suthe stronge.

The niyhtingale bigon the speche, in one hurne of one breche,

& sat up one vaire boyhe, - thar were abute blosme inoyhe,- in ore waste thicke hegge imeind mid spire & grene segge. Ho was the gladur uor the rise,

& song auele cunne wise: [b]et thuyhte the dreim that he were of harpe & pipe than he nere: bet thuyhte that he were ishote of harpe & pipe than of throte.

[Th]o stod on old stoc thar biside, thar tho vle song hire tide, & was mid iui al bigrowe; hit was thare hule earding-stowe.

[Th]e niyhtingale hi iseyh,

& hi bihold & ouerseyh, & thuyhte wel [vu]l of thare hule, for me hi halt lodlich & fule. "Vnwiyht," ho sede, "awei thu flo! me is the w[u]rs that ich the so.

Aside from that, you're not being able to read the Magna Carta is almost exclusively related to the scribes who translated you're copy being written by a bunch of coke-bottle lensed scribes w/out their cock=bottle lensed glasses.

Here's a link to a copy written by scribes with 20-20 vision:

Magna Carta

[TheThirdRuffian]

“Blow smoke somewhere else.”

Not to butt in, but when I see a response like “Blow smoke somewhere else” to a well-reasoned and thoughtful response, I get pretty digusted. If you disagree, disagree.

MWT, for what it is worth, the 2000 edition of the Economist concerned the very topic of the various plagues in Europe and how they formed and improved Western Civilization. I still have it, it was so interesting.

Jacquerie, you are, well, pathetic.

[SunkenCiv]

Note: this topic is from 4/10/2008. Thanks blam.

join or quit view topics view or post blog bookmark post new topic subscribe

[Chaguito]

Not the only plague that set upon the world in the 600’s. The other plague has killed many more people.

[blam]

"Not the only plague that set upon the world in the 600’s. The other plague has killed many more people."

Yup. (Different time)

One right next door:

Historical Review: Megadrought And Megadeath In 16th Century Mexico (Hemorrhagic Fever)

"The epidemic of cocoliztli from1545 to 1548 killed an estimated 5 million to 15 million people, or up to 80% of the native population of Mexico (Figure 1). In absolute and relative terms the 1545 epidemic was one of the worst demographic catastrophes in human history, approaching even the Black Death of bubonic plague, which killed approximately 25 million in western Europe from 1347 to 1351 or about 50% of the regional population. "

"The cocoliztli epidemic from 1576 to 1578 cocoliztli epidemic killed an additional 2 to 2.5 million people, or about 50% of the remaining native population

[Chaguito]

Great information, Blam. and really the truth. However, I was talking about a plague that began in the 600’s and spread from the Arabian peninsula. It continues to this day and no cure has yet been found.

[blam]

You may find this interesting:

The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imagined?

[Chaguito]

Thanks for the very interesting article. Seems to me that catastrophism is beyond much doubt. Just a question of mechanism. Time to start browsing Amazon for more info.

[blam]

"Thanks for the very interesting article. Seems to me that catastrophism is beyond much doubt. Just a question of mechanism. Time to start browsing Amazon for more info."

Ask SunkenCiv to put you on the Catastrophe ping list.

Here's a serious catastrophe for you:

Late Pleostocene Human Population Bottlenecks. . . (Toba)

"The last glacial period was preceded by 1000 years of the coldest temperatures of the Late Pleistocene, apparently caused by the eruption of the Mount Toba volcano. The six year long volcanic winter and 1000-year-long instant Ice Age that followed Mount Toba's eruption may have decimated Modern Man's entire population. Genetic evidence suggests that Human population size fell to about 10,000 adults between 50 and 100 thousand years ago"

[SunkenCiv]

Bah. ;’)

[Ditter]

Read later