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Faulty rules blamed for gun's firing (airline pilot's accidental discharge)
Washington Times ^ | March 28, 2008 | Audrey Hudson

Posted on 03/28/2008 12:28:59 PM PDT by neverdem

Inadequate handgun rules designed by Department of Homeland Security officials are to blame for last weekend's accidental discharge of a pistol by a commercial pilot during landing preparations, a pilots association said yesterday.

"The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too," said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. "In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."

The unnamed US Airways pilot, who was landing at Charlotte/Douglas (N.C.) International Airport, has been placed on leave by the airline since the incident.

This was the first report of a pilot's gun being discharged on a plane.

APSA, an organization of pilots...

--snip--

"We complained to DHS two years ago that this was an unsafe rule," Mr. Mackett said.

Rather than carry the weapon on their person at all times, pilots must lock it up before opening the cockpit door, meaning pilots handle the gun as many as 10 times per flight, the association estimates.

Pilots who have completed training to become federal flight deck officers (FFDOs) and carry weapons must use a holster used primarily as a home child-safety lock. A padlock is inserted through the holster and trigger guard, but, if inserted backward, it can trigger the gun, pilots say.

"It's a completely unsafe system unless it's used in a static environment — in a bedroom with good light. But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure," Mr. Mackett said....

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: armedpilots; banglist; dhs; ffdo; usairways
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To: PapaBear3625
Gotta agree - this holster and the bureaucratic nonsense that spawned it are a recipe for unpleasantness.

As an amateur holster-maker and firearms enthusiast, if I were going to put a padlock on a holster (and I wouldn't BTW), I'd put it up on the thumbbreak/retention strap. Putting the lock through the triggerguard is unnecessary and evidently dangerous. Let the leatherwork protect the trigger like the Good Lord and John Moses Browning intended.

I see no reason why a pilot who has put himself through the requires red tape and training can't keep a hot gun in the cockpit. Israeli-style draw may work for the IDF, but a round in the pipe is a good thing to have when you really, really need it.

Better idea - lockbox.

41 posted on 03/28/2008 1:36:57 PM PDT by AngryJawa ({IDPA, NRA} All Hail John Moses Browning)
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To: Hazcat
Why not just CARRY the MF'er until the flight is done?

All these rules and regulations are going to bite us in the @55 unless SOMEONE just says ... "phuque U, @55hole" ... and just TAKES control.

(BTW ... TAKEing control is what THEY are doing.) And it is insidious by the WAY they are TAKEing.

42 posted on 03/28/2008 1:43:57 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true.)
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To: Hazcat
Here's a picture of the holster / lock system they use.

You're kidding? That is the most pathetic, convuluted, stooopid setup I've ever seen. Who makes that thing anyhow?

Photobucket

"Hey Osamma Obamma Terrorist, wait 'til I get the combination to unlock this thing before you hi-jack this plane."

43 posted on 03/28/2008 1:44:56 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: Hazcat
Hazcat said: "Here's a picture of the holster / lock system they use. (for real)"

What part of "don't apply a trigger lock to a loaded gun" does the DHS not understand.

Dellenger in his argument before the Supreme Court in the Heller case was claiming that there exists a trigger lock that can be applied to a loaded gun. Has anybody ever heard of such a thing?

This ridiculous arrangement looks like what was being described. And the negligent discharge was exactly what ought to be expected.

44 posted on 03/28/2008 1:45:24 PM PDT by William Tell (RKBA for California (rkba.members.sonic.net) - Volunteer by contacting Dave at rkba@sonic.net)
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To: neverdem
But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure," Mr. Mackett said....

Most airliners have two pilots in the cockpit.

What was the other one doing while all this was going on?

The armed guy couldn't simply say to the other guy, 'Hey, can you take the controls whilst I lock up my pistol?'

Most airliners also have map lights in the cockpit so the pilots can read their maps at night.

45 posted on 03/28/2008 1:46:08 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (After six years of George W. Bush I long for the honesty and sincerity of the Clinton Administration)
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To: dhs12345
Figured it was an auto.

Semi-autos require an added level of thought and caution when handling.

People forget that a round was chambered.

Added level of thought and caution? I hope I never see you on the range. Furthermore, your carry revolver is always empty?

46 posted on 03/28/2008 1:52:52 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: SGCOS
Huh? preparation for landing includes leaving the cockpit..I never knew that.
,br>Descent and landing can take 20 minutes to an hour or more depending on the airport traffic. Much more time if you have to wait on the ground until a gate opens up (happens a lot). So yeah, getting up to take a pee while you still have time seems like a good idea.
47 posted on 03/28/2008 1:55:42 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: PowderMonkey

Having spent a couple of years flying as an armed air courier on commercial air carriers in the 70’s, a fair portion of the time in the cockpit. I can tell you that the TSA rules are beyond stupid. The cockpit is indeed no place to be futzing with a trigger lock and a loaded handgun.

I have to agree with the articles below.
Articles courtesy of www.crimefilenews.com

“TSA Arrogance Threatens Safety Of Air Travelers-Classified Information
Paul Huebl
Friday, December 28, 2007

I’m about to expose “classified information” about some internal workings and policies of the Transportation Security Administration. This is being written with the hope that the Flight Deck Officer (FDO) program will be taken away from the TSA and placed where it belongs, under a real law enforcement agency such as the United States Marshall’s Office.

Classifying government information was intended as a way to safeguard vital information from falling into the hands of our enemies. The TSA seems to only classify information to cover up their own ineptitude, ignorance and incompetence.

As a certified law-enforcement firearms trainer I have more than a passing interest in this type of activity, laws and policies.

The FDOs are airline pilots who have been specially screened and trained so they can carry firearms in order to protect the cockpits of their aircraft. Under TSA rules the FDOs are forbidden to take any action outside of the cockpit to protect passengers and crew. Limiting the FDO’s control over their aircraft enables rather than restrict terrorist attacks. Our Pilots are under absolutely insane micromanaging and regulation while terrorists are free to do whatever is necessary to destroy and kill whatever they wish.

The bureaucrats and political hacks of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the newly formed TSA are not trained as law enforcement officers and are absolutely unqualified to regulate the quasi law-enforcement function of airline security. Despite the serious nature of aviation security these unqualified people have been given absolute control over security by our politicians.

The FAA and TSA bureaucrats have fought tooth & nail any arming of flight crews. They lost that battle but continue to impede the safety of Americans by their obstructionist antics. These schemes included making pilots lug around a 22 pound vault for their side arms. The idea was to make sure the pilots can’t have access to their weapons until they are locked in their cockpits. Only then are the pilots allowed to open the vaults in this very confined space.

The vault requirement was and is bizarre and unworkable. After much criticism the vault requirement was lifted in favor of yet another screwball idea. The padlocked FDO holster was born. That’s right a holster with a combination padlock on it! At this point I have to ask if it’s the right time for mandatory drug testing and psychological examinations of TSA officials.

None of the law enforcement firearms trainers I’ve talked to view this padlock holster as anything more that a hazard to all but terrorists trying to kill and injure Americans. These trainers are baffled to learn of the holster lock and unlock procedures that I won’t disclose here.

The TSA Air Marshalls and the federal law enforcement officers cleared to carry firearms on airliners are trained in the area of weapons retention. The pilots are capable of safely controlling multimillion dollar planes carrying hundreds of passengers, are they incapable of retaining their side arms?

We need to force the TSA and FAA to allow trained FDO’s the ability to carry their side arms in the tried and true manner law enforcement officers have been doing for a very long time. At the same time the obstacles that inhibit pilots from joining the FDO program have to be eliminated. Will we have to wait for yet another senseless tragedy before we fix a problem? One thing for sure, the TSA is the problem here.

Paul Huebl-Chicago, L.A. & Phoenix Licensed Private Detective-Former Chicago policeman-Investigative vlogcaster

Paul Huebl
Monday, March 24, 2008
CHARLOTTE, N.C.—It was only a matter of time before there’d be an accidental, non-negligent discharge of a Federal Flight Deck Officer’s weapon. Saturday a U.S. Airways pilot’s gun discharged on Flight 1536, which left Denver at approximately 6:45am and arrived in Charlotte at approximately 11:51am. The Airbus A319 plane landed safely and thankfully none of the flight’s 124 passengers or five crew members was injured

The insane procedures required by the TSA demands that our pilots to lock and then un-lock their .40 side arms was and is a solid recipe for disaster. Did the TSA deliberately create this bizarre and unconventional Rube Goldberg firearm retention system hoping for this result? The sordid history of the FAA and TSA’s total resistance to the concept of arming pilots to protect Americans is in itself a scandal.

Putting a gun into a holster and then threading a padlock through the trigger and trigger-guard is required every time the pilots enter or leave the cockpit. This kind of silliness has never been forced on any law enforcement or security officers anywhere in the world until now. Before this holster padlock procedure pilots with guns were forced to carry them around in a cumbersome 22 pound vault. The vault caused problems in the confined space of most cockpits.

FFDO pilots need to carry their side arms in conventional concealed holsters and there is no reason for the unnecessary handling of their firearms in the cockpits.

Paul Huebl-Chicago, L.A. & Phoenix Licensed Private Detective-Former Chicago policeman-Investigative vlogcaster”


48 posted on 03/28/2008 1:55:51 PM PDT by ghostcat
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To: Cobra64
??

My self-defense revolver is always loaded.

49 posted on 03/28/2008 1:57:30 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
The armed guy couldn't simply say to the other guy, 'Hey, can you take the controls whilst I lock up my pistol?'

Most airliners also have map lights in the cockpit so the pilots can read their maps at night.


Those lights are not all that bright.
There is still stuff going on in the cockpit to distract him even if his hands are not on the controls.

You should never handle a gun if there is not a 'safe direction' you can point it in, regardless of lighting and distractions. In the cockpit of an aircraft there is no safe direction.
50 posted on 03/28/2008 1:58:49 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: neverdem
Hmmm.........

I wonder where all of the brain surgeons on the previous thread who swore that it HAD TO BE GLOCK are right about now?



Ahhh .... the sound of silence!

51 posted on 03/28/2008 2:00:23 PM PDT by Eaker (2 Thessalonians 3:10 “... He that will not work, neither should he eat.”)
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To: Hazcat; PowderMonkey
Ahem....AN UNLOADED GUN IS AN EXPENSIVE ROCK!

And the owner should not carry one.

52 posted on 03/28/2008 2:02:25 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: neverdem

This is what happens when we let dumbasses who’ve never used a gun write gun laws.


53 posted on 03/28/2008 2:06:30 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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To: PapaBear3625
Pilot error. The pilot has no business "leaving the cockpit" while he's trying to fly the plane

Yeah, he should just "hold it" for another five hours, if he needs to pee.

54 posted on 03/28/2008 2:08:01 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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To: neverdem

How’s about we carry a gun with grip safety or one with a heavy enough double action trigger to keep this from happening.

Some guns with light DA triggers are susceptible to this kind of discharges. Normally, before storage, those guns are pointed in a safe direction and unloaded before storage. Since there is no safe direction on an airplane, a different kind of weapon is in order.

A 1911 is the first gun to come to mind. Next would be pretty much any revolver. The DA pull and the extra safety on a Ruger P-series would be a good choice as well.


55 posted on 03/28/2008 2:13:36 PM PDT by Poser (Willing to fight for oil)
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To: untrained skeptic
Sounds like pretty extreme negligence on the part of the pilot rather than a problem with faulty rules.

You see nothing wrong with these rules?

They seem designed to enable incidents like this.

Better solution. Fire the TSA/HS bureaucrat who came up with the rules. No second chance.

56 posted on 03/28/2008 2:21:51 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools - Solon, Lawmaker of Athens)
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To: dhs12345
Haven't tried this yet with my hi-power but I wonder if my hi-power will discharge with a round chambered and the clip removed.

What is a "hi-power?"

Are you referring to a Browning Hi-Power?

They do not take clips.
Photobucket

They take magazines:
Photobucket

.

.

Ooops, ammo magazines...

PhotobucketPhotobucket

Photobucket

57 posted on 03/28/2008 2:22:02 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: neverdem
"Faulty Rules"?

Nothing faulty about the rule that says 'keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire'.

58 posted on 03/28/2008 2:32:05 PM PDT by SiVisPacemParaBellum (Peace through superior firepower!)
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To: PapaBear3625
I remember a short-lived clamshell holster where you put the holster's "protrusion" through the trigger guard to secure the gun. Many cops shot themselves with that design.

Bureaucrats will never get the message of commonsense re firearms.

59 posted on 03/28/2008 2:43:25 PM PDT by LouAvul
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To: dhs12345
My self-defense revolver is always loaded.

Why? Isn't it dangerous? (sarcasm) ... Just as you said a semi-automatic pistol is dangerous if a round is in the chamber.

And, if you have an older, single action revolver without a transfer bar, all chambers loaded, with a live round under the hammer, a revolver drop to the hammer could cause it to fire.

60 posted on 03/28/2008 2:45:07 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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