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The F-22: expensive, irrelevant and counterproductive
the Star-Telegram ^ | Jan. 27, 2008 | PIERRE SPREY, JAMES STEVENSON and WINSLOW WHEELER

Posted on 01/31/2008 9:02:42 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki

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1 posted on 01/31/2008 9:02:46 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

From the same article-

Pierre Sprey was one of three designers who conceived and shaped the F-16; he also led the technical side of the US Air Force’s A-10 design concept team. James Stevenson is former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School’s


2 posted on 01/31/2008 9:05:02 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

The Fort-Worth Star Telegram - Like Pravda but with a Texas drawl.


3 posted on 01/31/2008 9:06:14 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

What...and the AF only put thousands of its most experienced and qualified officers out of the service to pay for it.

Another stroke of genius by the leaders who spent much of the Global War on Terrorism making changes to the uniforms. Thank God we got that PT uniform, though...now the country is safe.


4 posted on 01/31/2008 9:09:35 PM PST by RavenATB
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To: sukhoi-30mki

None of these guys has ever flown a fighter, let alone this fighter.

One would get another story from the guys that do, and the guys that have gone against it in initial trial combat operations.

What is sad is that the MSM and the left wing politicians actually pay attention to these agenda driven fools.


5 posted on 01/31/2008 9:11:09 PM PST by oldbill
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To: sukhoi-30mki
...its primary mission -- shooting down enemy aircraft -- has no meaning in 21st-century warfare.

It would be interesting if this guy wrote a similar article in 1932: "Why should we spend money on the tools of war? There are no wars!"

If the Chicoms ever attack, I'm sure they'll give us plenty of time to develop new weapons.

6 posted on 01/31/2008 9:11:11 PM PST by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: sukhoi-30mki

“Pierre Sprey was one of three designers who conceived and shaped the F-16; he also led the technical side of the US Air Force’s A-10 design concept team. James Stevenson is former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School’s”

Are you saying they have a conflict and are not qualified to comment?

I agree with many of the points in this article.


7 posted on 01/31/2008 9:14:38 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: sukhoi-30mki

...but oh so pretty!


8 posted on 01/31/2008 9:14:50 PM PST by endthematrix (He was shouting 'Allah!' but I didn't hear that. It just sounded like a lot of crap to me.)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

Or in 1913: “Now that we have the machine gun, there’s no reason for any other tactics than direct frontal assaults.”


9 posted on 01/31/2008 9:16:40 PM PST by denydenydeny (Expel the priest and you don't inaugurate the age of reason, you get the witch doctor--Paul Johnson)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
>>The current plan is to buy 184 F-22s for $65.3 billion, or $354.9 million per aircraft.<<

Ouch! That makes me feel old. I can recall when an F-111 cost only $8 million.

10 posted on 01/31/2008 9:16:58 PM PST by Muleteam1
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To: sukhoi-30mki
We need to advance our technology in these non-clinton years. Get back to somewhere near where we should be ‘advantage-wise’.
11 posted on 01/31/2008 9:18:06 PM PST by kinoxi
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To: sukhoi-30mki
F-22 proof that the Air Force is always ready to fight the last war.......NOT. Ditto for the F-35.

A-10, designed for Vietnam and it works OK for the sandbox.

I would hate to be the pilot that goes up against a generation 6 5 Chinese/Russki fighter in anything other than a F-22.

You wonder if the author wished we still flew SPADS? (A1E)

12 posted on 01/31/2008 9:18:59 PM PST by ASOC (The Captain doesn't choose the storm....)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Original Message -——
From: Michael M. Dunn
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:22 AM
Subject: Note from AFA President — A/C Restrictions and CSAF White Paper

January 16, 2008
AFA members and Congressional Staffers, many of you have commented favorably on the “elevator speech numbers” I sent you.

It’s January ... so here are some revealing data on the “State of the Air Force.”

Fighter Aircraft - average age: 20 years; average flight hours 5400+

Bomber Aircraft - average age: 32 years; average flight hours 11,400+

Tanker aircraft - average age: 44 years; average flight hours 18,900+

C2 Fleet - average age: 22 years old; average flight hours 32,000

ISR Fleet (excluding UAV) - average age: 30 years old; average flight hours 18,000

Key Groundings/Restrictions

F-15A-D - 163 of 441 are grounded for structural issues

B-52 - 6 are grounded - past due PDM grounding date - authorized a one-time flight to the bone-yard.

EC-130 - 2 of 14 are grounded due to center wing box cracks

C-130E - 3 are grounded and 13 are restricted due to Service life and wing cracks

KC-135Es - 26 of 86 are grounded due to engine strut corrosion.

AC-130U - 4 of 17 are restricted due to lack of 30MM weapons

B-2 - entire fleet is restricted due to windshield bolt hole cracks

C-5s - 39 of 108 are restricted due to crown skin restrictions (weight limiting)

Additionally:

219 of 223 F-15Es have training restrictions due to vertical stab structural issues

Majority of Block 25/30/32, block 40/42, and block 50/52 F-16s need structural modifications

All 356 A-10s will need new wings and new aircraft skin - many have landing gear issues ... and all need new engines.

C-130Hs have Center Wing Box issues

C-32As have bulkhead structural issues.

Looking across the FYDP - between 2008-2013 - the Air Force will divest itself of 749 aircraft and procure only 698 aircraft (260 of which are UAVs).

To give you the idea of the scale of all of this:

When the AF grounded its 600+ F-15 fleet, it grounded more aircraft than the entire F/A Navy. The F-15s it presently has grounded equate to a bit more than 3 aircraft carriers of aircraft.

The 356 A-10s that need renovations equates to more aircraft than the fixed wing USMC

The Air Force has about 5800 aircraft ... and presently about one-third are either grounded or restricted in one way or another
The central important part of this data is that this is not a third-world Air Force ... And the question we should ask ourselves, why don’t we fund it to ensure our children and grandchildren are safe and secure?

2nd Subject -

Chief of Staff White Paper - Gen Moseley published an exceptional White Paper ... which lays out the strategic foundations for the Air Force of the future. If you haven’t seen it, you can find it on the AFA website: http://dailyreport.afa.org/NR/rdonlyres/868196FC-AABB-4230-84EA-F5358B0C4B34/0/CSAF_white_paper.pdf

My favorite quotes in it are:

“No modern war has been won without air superiority. No future war will be won without air, space and cyberspace superiority.” Page 2.

“With the oldest inventory in history, battered by 17 years of continuous combat, the Air Force’s ability to fulfill its missions is already being tested.” Page 2

“... our reliance on assured access to space will increase exponentially.” Page 8

“The Air Force is smaller in December 2007 than it was in December 1941.” Page 10
For your consideration.

Mike

Michael M. Dunn, Lt Gen (Ret)
AFA President/CEO

13 posted on 01/31/2008 9:19:03 PM PST by B4Ranch ((Don't forget to say a prayer for our soldiers out there in harm's way. ))
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To: sukhoi-30mki

THIS JUST IN:

The Star-Telegram is expensive and irrelevant.


14 posted on 01/31/2008 9:19:17 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network (So-called free trade advocates = "China Firsters")
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To: RFEngineer

Obviously the authors are correct that using fast, high-flying platforms like the F-22 for ground attack is ridiculous.

But it’s equally ridiculous to decree that we no longer need an air-superiority fighter when there is still a China, a Russia, an Iran, out there. I don’t care what the qualifications of the authors are, that’s just stupid.


15 posted on 01/31/2008 9:21:00 PM PST by denydenydeny (Expel the priest and you don't inaugurate the age of reason, you get the witch doctor--Paul Johnson)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal
I always found it fascinating that the B-17 (1935) was approved by congress as a coastal defense weapon. Next to the the Jeep and the M1 Garand, it was the weapon that beat the Axis.
16 posted on 01/31/2008 9:21:31 PM PST by endthematrix (He was shouting 'Allah!' but I didn't hear that. It just sounded like a lot of crap to me.)
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To: oldbill

“One would get another story from the guys that do, and the guys that have gone against it in initial trial combat operations.

What is sad is that the MSM and the left wing politicians actually pay attention to these agenda driven fools.”

Which part of the story? the maintenance hour per flying hour part? The cost part?

These guys didn’t say the F22 wasn’t a fine aircraft, they basically argued it costs too much, is not presently deployable, and is not capable of missions beyond air superiority that are necessary in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why must they have cockpit time in an F22 to make these points, which are quite relevant?


17 posted on 01/31/2008 9:23:16 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: denydenydeny

No kidding. You have to keep your military up to date. Make it obvious to your enemies that they will be smacked down so hard with overwhelming superiority that they dare not TRY to attack.

That said, I’m very suspicious about the true costs of these aircraft, and how badly managed some of these programs are.


18 posted on 01/31/2008 9:23:19 PM PST by rom (Deserted by Fred, I am now for Ron Paul)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

If the Chicoms attack, they will hit our navies and be laucnhing missiles at the mainland.


19 posted on 01/31/2008 9:24:01 PM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: B4Ranch

On the one hand, they tell us that we are wearing out our equipment; on the other, they tell us we shouldn’t get new equipment.


20 posted on 01/31/2008 9:26:36 PM PST by RobbyS
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