Posted on 05/09/2007 6:51:49 AM PDT by Lusis
The resignation of Randall Tobias, the chief of the Bush administration's foreign aid programs, for "personal reasons" following the revelation that he had engaged the services of two escort-service workers has provided rich grist for amusement on the punditry circuit. There was indeed plenty of material for humor in the situation, from Tobias's strong stand in favor of abstinence teaching in AIDS prevention programs to his "I didn't inhale"-style assertion that he never had sex with the women. But the predictable laughs have obscured a much larger issue than hypocrisy in the ranks of social conservatives. The reason Tobias's call-girl adventures became public is that the owner of the Washington, DC-based service, Pamela Martin, is facing prosecution and has turned her records over to news organizations to help pay for her legal defense.
Even those who feel a certain schadenfreude at Tobias's downfall should be asking the question: should there have been a criminal case in the first place?
(Excerpt) Read more at reason.com ...
Yet another poster who believes that if anyone disagrees with him in matters theological, it must be because his interlocutor hasn't really read the Gospels.
After all, how could anyone who searches the Scriptures possibly disagree with GGpaX4DumpedTea, the Lord's self-appointed spokesman?
We pay for politicians and they screw us all the time.
You are wrong on many points.
First of all, government is not a GOD ordained institution; it was originally something men in their foolishness and idolatry demanded of GOD. He was the king of HIS chosen people but they wanted a man to look to instead of trusting in the LORD. HE warned them that they would lose their liberties and men would take their wealth but they didn’t listen and so we received “government” rather than Theocracy.
GOD does order us to obey our leaders and he has said they are there to be HIS sword but you take it out of context, this is a sword against evil nations not a sword against it’s own people. HE used Israel to bring his judgment against the Canaanites and other evil nations and then he used Babylon to bring judgment against Israel when she went astray.
GOD’s Holy Spirit is purposed to restrain evil and HE leaves evil’s consequences to punish those who commit it. It’s a spiritual law of the universe, live by the sword, die by the sword.
The purpose of HIS LAW was not to punish or curb evil behavior it was to illuminate our utter depravity and illustrate that we are incapable of living a free from sin. Jesus then explained the spirit of the law by pointing out that GOD judges not the action but the heart so yes, at the Day of Judgment we will be judged for our thoughts as well as our words and deeds. This is what the Pharisees couldn’t and wouldn’t accept and this is the trap legalists throughout history fall into. This is where cults are born and the inquisition and all of the evil that has been committed in the name of Christianity. This is why Jesus was crucified.
The Law’s other purpose, along with the Levitical statutes and temple sacrificial edicts were to point to Christ (excepting the laws pertaining to food and washing as this was also for health and disease prevention). Everything the tribe of Benjamin did, everything they wore, every ceremony was specifically given by GOD to point to the final and only effective propitiation for sin – Jesus and the Cross. When GOD told Israel to stone adulterers he did so because they were immature in their understanding of GOD, HIS plan and their inherited sinful nature. He followed most of these punishments with the phrase – So you shall purge the evil from your midst. They didn’t have the gospel or the blessing of the Holy Spirit residing in their hearts as Christians do today to help keep society in line.
You’ll also *note* that in the Millennial reign of Christ, that Jesus, rules with an iron rod and punishment is swift and sure.
So, even then — the aim is not to “produce morality” — but rather to *restrain* evil and *punish* evil-doers.
You have the wrong perspective because you don’t fully realize the fallen nature of creation itself, man’s place in the universe (to glorify GOD in his mercy and justice), and that GOD doesn’t operate according to your time table but according to HIS preordained plan. GOD has already punished all sin in all its forms. The legitimate use of govt. isn’t divine vengeance upon evil doers as you’d like it to be used. It is to protect our rights from being infringed upon by others through fraud or force. Any other use, ESPECIALLY in the name of religion only leads to tyranny, i.e. Taliban.
. . . nor does it particularly recommend the referenced document. Nor did I suggest, in any way, that your Beloved Bible was anything it shouldn't be.Presenting the argument, "Look at all the apparent adherents to (The Bible, the Constitution, etc.) who disagree about it! Therefore, it cannot be an effective guide!" is obfuscation.
A guide is one thing; however, that which has the power to deprive free men of their liberty---i.e., law---should not be simply a guide. Should it?
I suggest you go out into the sunlight, this Spring day, take some deep breaths and take a fresh approach.
I suggest you take your smugness and stick it in a place where that wonderful sunlight doesn't shine.
Not the verses but the words I quoted, which were yours, not HIS.
You seem to be lacking in grace, Star Traveler, and overflowing in zeal and a delight for pointing out the sins of others. You strike me as spiritually immature. It is easy to cry for fire and brimstone - punishment and the iron rod to restrain evil, but it takes faith to trust in the Holy Spirit’s ability to work within the freedom GOD has granted us in this secular representative republic we live in.
Nope, I’m able.
If your reality really includes the notion that kids have a harder time finding alcohol than drugs (due to legal status) further mindless discussion on “let’s legalize drugs” is futile.
Nice cop out, man good job!
You said — “... but it takes faith to trust in the Holy Spirit’s ability to work within the freedom GOD has granted us in this secular representative republic we live in.”
—
It certainly takes a *lot of faith* to trust in something that the Holy Spirit says won’t happen, that’s for sure. It’s clearly pointed out that sin will abound all the more, that soon the Holy Spirit will be pulled back and let sin run rampant and that government will act (soon to come) in the favor of the Antichrist and will no longer restrain evil and punish the evil-doers. That’s what I hear, from the Bible, that is going to happen.
. . . as long as it wasn't a Catholic one. Or in New England, an Anglican one. Or in Virginia, a Puritan one. The "simple fact of the matter" is that you can't overlook that when you make your grand, sweeping generalization about this subject.
Which Christian religious influence was, or is, the correct one? Do the Mormons have it right? The Presbyterians? The Unitarians? The Methodists? The Baptists? The Seventh-Day Adventists? The Congregationalists? Or are we supposed to believe that some amalgamation, or overlapping, of all of these Protestant sects have it right? And if so, what's the proper equation for blending it all together?
After all, if such a thing is to be the basis of secular criminal law, we should strive to get it right, shouldn't we?
In sum, while a certain morality should be the underpinning of criminal law, morality in and of itself should not dictate criminal law. Where morality and law overlap and intersect is generally a happy place, and a good one, but just as you cannot get grain from whiskey even though you can get whiskey from grain, you cannot get morality from law, even though you can extract law from morality.
Rest of post redacted for brevity.
You went a long way to say yeah, I was right.
You said — “You went a long way to say yeah, I was right.”
—
And for brevity, also, I suppose living in that imaginery world of yours is more comforting...
If you see monsters under your bed, man, that's your problem, not mine. From where I sit, God loves us and wants us to be happy.
that government will act (soon to come) in the favor of the Antichrist
So.... you support giving government more power and precedent to control more and more aspects of it’s citizens’ lives? You want to give it religious legitimacy which will be used to trick those weak in faith or lacking faith into believing the evil it will do is godly and just when the Antichrist is in control?
You contradict yourself here. If govt. is going to be used as a tool of the Antichrist shouldn’t we be doing all we can to deny it power and scope? Kinda like what Libertarians have been trying to do?
Victimless? Let's see: 1) STD's passed on to either the prostitute or the "John". 2) Most prostitution also has drug use/abuse involved 3) Pimps who sell women for their personal profit - often getting the woman strung out on drugs in order to get them to prostitute themselves 4) The breakdown of Marriage due to prostitution 5) Prostitutes being murdered because they are prostitutes (by some sick individual - recall the man in WA state who did just that). 6) The aftermath of the breakdown of Marriage results in single parent households and the pain and misery inflicted upon the children of these Marriages. I'm sure there are many more ways in which prostitution could be identified to produce victims in a society. Victimless? I don't buy it.
And some would argue that at least with prostitutes there is some pleasure involved.
Then it is possible to be a "crack" addict and hold down a blue collar or white collar job, maintain your monthy expenses, keep your marriage together, and take care of your children without going "postal" on them simply by making the drug cheaper to obtain? Legalizing crack and other mind altering drugs will prevent these people from becoming cognitive zombies and going out and engaging in behaviors which threaten the community? Yeah, I'll buy that (Not).
You make the argument for me and I thank you. It is Jesus not government. Remember, NOWHERE did Jesus tell His followers to get laws passed to do the work He directed US to do. He told US to get to it and get ‘er done. Thus laws promoting “morality” would, on the face of it, seem unscriptural. Only laws protecting the equal rights of ALL would be consistent with God’s commands, from what I see. The MORALITY part comes from God and our relationship with Him. Plus our ability to get others to VOLUNTARILY subscribe to God’s morality. (It’s not a MORAL CODE if you are COMPELLED to submit; it is only moral if it’s your VOLUNTARY choice. And MORALITY is what God is about. Plus the fact that if we choose NOT to submit, there is an eternal penalty... which most seem not willing to believe.)
Of course, that includes *restraining* the evil of prostitution, too and *punishing* the evil-doers of prostitution. Don’t forget that.
And yes, the government does not promote or is even able to instill any kind of inner-morality. All the government can do is restrain *outward acts* — and punish those evil-doers of those outward acts of evil. Again, that includes prostitution (along with a whole list of other evils that the Bible makes us aware of).
For the inner morality that is truly instilled in the heart, that takes the saving Grace of Jesus Christ as our personal savior. And none of that takes away from the government restraining and punishing these evil-doers that we have in our society, right now...
Fine, once you do so I’ll be able to address the pertinent points.
Otherwise, I accept your concession.
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