A Fellow Torture Victim Splits With Sen. McCain (interesting turn of events)

The Hill ^ | December 6, 2005 | Jonathan Allen

[Former Military Chick]

Perhaps something worthy of contacting the Senators office about??

[VRWCmember]

His provision defines cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

Brilliant. So we leave it as broad as liberal panty-waste courts can interpret it. I think various courts have found depriving sex offenders of their Playboy subscription is a violation of one or more of these amendments.

[Freedom_Fighter_2001]

I always thought it strange that McCain got together with J Fn Kerry to give the People's Paradise of Vietnam a big wet sloppy kiss. Super Stockholm syndrome for McCain? (typical Kerry treason)

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

After McCain was turned by the communists, he joined the Republican Party, if he had joined the Democrats he would just be another democrat.

[GOPJ]

There's different types of torture. One type of torture is where millions people of people and their children and families are exposed to radiation, glass in windows that moves with the speed of bullets, and fires hot enough to melt steel. The other type is where a person thinks they're drowning, but they're not... If it's the ticking time bomb, and it's a million being tortured or one being tortured, it's got to be the one.

That said, this should never be done by sergeants on the night shift - or random CIA agents. Top generals need to be present and it's got to be rare beyond words.

[VeniVidiVici]

“I wasn’t really as courageous as Sam Johnson,” McCain, who was awarded many of the same medals, told The Dallas Morning News for a 2003 profile of Johnson. “I mean that. He suffered a lot more than I did.”

And why is that, John?

[layman]

anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment

Nothing like opening up a can of worms. The potential ramifications of this definition (ie; Due Process, Self Incrimination, Equal Protection) are mind boggling and typical of the fuzzy thinking of John McCain.

[TChris]

Yeah, he can talk about supposed torture... But did he have to stand naked in front of a girl and wear a dog collar?

[<1/1,000,000th%]

His provision defines cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

Maybe McCain can add another provision applying these Amendments to us.

[Gritty]

House critics of McCain appear unwilling to challenge the former prisoner of war on torture even with cover from Johnson

Gutless cowards. This is no different than "Campaign Finance Reform".

As the story points out, McCain suffered a lot less than many of the POWs, including Johnson. Yet he is the one everyone fawns over for his heroism as a POW. Everyone, including himself, has made McCain into an untouchable icon on certain matters. That is not only bad policy, but can lead to disasterous results, as we have seen in campaign finance reform.

[HawaiianGecko]

 

I personally don't buy into the argument that torture doesn't work. If it didn't, thousands of years of torture wouldn't have happened. I don't believe that humans changed in the last 30 years and became torture proof.

I can believe that highly trained special ops soldiers can be trained to not spill the beans when tortured, but surely 99% of the population of the planet would tell all in fairly short order.

The ex-CIA types running around on news-talk shows saying that torture doesn't work are simply citing a cover story that makes people believe that they don't torture prisoners. It seems clear to me that the most effective way to convince people that you don't use these techniques is to claim they don't work. It's not like we peasants can actually test this theory out.

 

[HawaiianGecko]

 

A corollary to this article since it mentions both Sam Johnson and Murtha is this: Why do I keep hearing people saying how this highly decorated Marine Murtha believes we should cut and run, therefore, it must be true. Yet, I don't see or hear anyone mentioning that a 'more highly' decorated soldier, Sam Johnson, thinks Murtha's idea is BS.

Does one have to be a lesser decorated military man to be correct?

 

[Infantry Grunt 1968-69]

McCain admitted that he folded under the interrogation techniques used by the North Vietnamese.
One of his flight school colleagues said he crashed every plane he ever tried to fly.

[Barney Gumble]

http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm

[kellynla]

I agree with Sam Johnson.

You have to leave everything on the table.

We are dealing with war criminals not uniformed military combatants and as such they are not entitled to the same protections and/or rights.

Semper Fi,
Kelly

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

McCain the collaborator

From the first days of McCain's captivity, he seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct, which outlines the basic responsibilities and obligations of members of the Armed Forces of the United States who have been captured by the enemy.

According to documentation obtained by the U.S. Veteran Dispatch, not only did POW McCain promise to give the communists "military information" in exchange for special hospital care not ordinarily available to U.S. prisoners, but he also made numerous anti-war radio broadcasts.

Article V of the Code of Conduct is very specific in declaring that U.S. military personnel are required to avoid answering questions to the utmost of their ability and to make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its allies or harmful to their cause. Any violation of this code is considered collaborating with the enemy.

The following is McCain's own admission of collaboration in an article he wrote, printed May 14, 1973 in U.S. News and World Report:

"I think it was on the fourth day [after being shot down] that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to us - a man dying of a broken leg. Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.

"When I saw it, I said to the guard, `O.K., get the officer.'"

"An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as "The Bug." He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, `O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.'"

The Admiral's son gets "special treatment"

McCain claims it was only a coincidence that, about the same time he was begging to be taken to a hospital, the Vietnamese learned his father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., commander of all U.S. forces in Europe and soon-to-be commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific, including Vietnam.

McCain does concede he survived because the Vietnamese learned who his father was, rushing him to a hospital where his wounds were eagerly treated.

The former POW admitted in the U.S. News and World Report article that the Vietnamese usually left other U.S. prisoners with similar wounds to die, not wishing to waste medication on them. McCain pointed out "there were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured. They weren't going to waste their time."

McCain has failed to mention what he has confided to another U.S. prisoner that since the Vietnamese felt they had in their hands such a "special prisoner" and propaganda bonanza, a Soviet surgeon was called in to treat him.

The communists figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, McCain was of royalty or the governing circle. They bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

His communist handlers believed McCain, because he came from a "royal-family", would, when finally released, return to the United States to some important U.S. military or government job. Communist Interrogators and psychological warfare experts drooled at the thought.

McCain's handlers were very much aware that he would be under great psychological pressure not to do or say anything that would tarnish the name of his famous military family.

In fact, the communists considered that to be the key to eventually breaking and then "turning" their "special" prisoner, using blackmail if necessary.

According to U.S. government documents, within a week of POW McCain being transferred to the Gai Lam military hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.

One report dated Nov. 9, 1967 read, "The question of the correspondent, McCain answered: "My assignment in to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses of pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to raids on the North Vietnamese Territory (VNA), and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the forest to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. All together, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam."

In that article, McCain was further quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.

Six weeks after McCain was shot down, he was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No. 11 of "The Plantation" and into the hands of two other POWs, who helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself.

Afterwards, his handlers isolated "special prisoner", McCain from other American prisoners and made him the target of intense psychological programs.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd59.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd60.htm

[cynicom]

But look at the medals he got for being a POW..

Two silver Stars

two legions of merit

two DFCs

three bronze stars

three purple hearts

McCain is a certified hero. Navy says so.

Did I mention his Daddy was an Admiral at the time?

[q_an_a]

I've been wondering where Sam Johnson and a couple of other Viet Vets have been during the debate ont eh war/ These guys could show up at a Murtha news event and debate his vision versus the vision of other vets, but the republicans leave them out of the story. WHY???

[lugsoul]

"You have to leave everything on the table."

Everything? How about raping the daughter of a detainee in front of him? Beating his infant child in front of him?

I doubt you'll say these things should be 'on the table' for use by Americans seeking information. There is a line to be drawn. Where the line is drawn is a legitimate debate.

[freema]

Bravo.