S. Korea:Surprising Discoveries in Silla's Royal Tomb No. 98 (including Greco-Roman artifacts)

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[Jacob Kell]

Was it really "Celtic", or just looked similar? THe TOcharians were mediterranean in racial type, I belive. ALso, not all Caucasians are Indo-European.

[blam]

"Is your father's family Scottish? "

Our family name is LAMB (hence my screen name blam)

[Fedora]

Could a 'split' have occurred as recent as 4,000-6,000 years ago?

I'm trying to find something on that now. Here's one site which has some interesting information:

Maps Locating Fossil Hominids from China

MAP SHOWING MAJOR SITES OF MODERN H. sapiens IN CHINA:

Until recently fossils of modern H. sapiens in China were relatively few and far between. The most important specimens, consisting of three complete skulls and other skeletal remains, were discovered at the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in the 1930s. The dating of these remains has been problematical with age estimates ranging between 11-26,000 YA. The Upper Cave remains have been said by some to show closer affinities to Upper Paleolithic Europeans rather than living Chinese. Other researchers, however, see the remains as representative of an East Asian "proto-Mongoloid " population. The oldest modern human fossils in China date from between 35-60,000 YA from Salawusu in Inner Mongolia, Laishui in Hebei and Liujiang in Guangxi. These finds preserve archaic features reminiscent of pre-modern Chinese fossils from sites like Xujiayao. Other modern human fossil remains from both North and South China date from the terminal Pleistocene, approximately 10-12,000 YA.

[Jacob Kell]

THere are some who believe or at least suspect that the Hungarian language may actually be Altaic. ALso, most experts agree that the origin of the word "Hungary" was a Slav corruption or bastardization of the Turkic phrase "On-Ogurs", which meant "Ten Arrows", which was what the Hungarian tribal confederation was called because there were ten tribes. They called themselves "Magyars". Also, "ALtaic" is a linguistic term, not a racial one.

[Fedora]

I can't see the pic you posted in #40--tried the link, too, but it says the page isn't there. What's it show?

[Jacob Kell]

There are people who say that the original TUrks or proto-TUrks were actually caucasoid too, not mongoloid. The Kirghiz, for example were said to have had red hair, fair skin, and green eyes. After all, not all caucasoids were Indo-Europeans.

[blam]

"Was it really "Celtic", or just looked similar? THe TOcharians were mediterranean in racial type, I belive."

The skeletons (mummies) found in the presence of the Tocharian language were tall and red-headed and had fabrics like the Celts in Hallstadt, Austria.

[blam]

"I can't see the pic you posted in #40--tried the link, too, but it says the page isn't there. What's it show?"

It's a map of the migrations from the Black Sea flood in 5600BC and indicates (by an arrow) the Tocharians and Ainu headed across the northern steppes to Asia. (JimRob doesn't like us linking from that site, I can still see it but it may be blocked?)

[Jacob Kell]

Were the mummies really found in the TOcharian language area, and if so, do we really know...just for the sake of arguement that they were indeed Tocharians? Could their hair have been bleached by being in the dry arid earth for over a thousand years, or maybe affected by dyes? What I'm trying to say is that do we really know that red was their real hair color?

[blam]

"The dating of these remains has been problematical with age estimates ranging between 11-26,000 YA. The Upper Cave remains have been said by some to show closer affinities to Upper Paleolithic Europeans rather than living Chinese. Other researchers, however, see the remains as representative of an East Asian "proto-Mongoloid " population."

Very interesting.

Mair said that during his searches dealing with the Tarim Mummies they came across human artifacts dated to 250,000 years ago in that region. (he just mentioned this in passing in his book)

[Fedora]

Thanks for the description. I found the index page for that site and I can't get the page from there, either, so I don't know if it's blocked from FR or if it's just a problem with the site. But anyway, I can visualize the picture from your description.

[JimSEA]

It is a suprising assertion about which I have been having a friendly argument with Blam. He believes the Chinese First Emperor was possibly Celtic and I disagree. However, he has given me high quality references to convince me something with the Indo-Europeans in general and the Celts or perhaps more accuratly, the Proto-Celts happened that has yet to be fully understood. That is rather exciting. I would highly recomend The Mummies of Urumchi by Elizabeth Wayland Barber who is a textile expert. It conflicts with J. P. Mallory's In Search of the Indo-European however, Mallory was vague about the eastern spread of people although he spend time on the Kurgan movements. I am convinced, as an interested and non-professional observer, that there is a lot to be discovered between the Caucus and China and much of it may involve the Kurgan. In short, I don't know if it is Celtic or not but Barber is convincing.

[JimSEA]

My problem with the First Emperor comes from the representations in art which don't support it. Now, a racially mixed background, that has potential.

[blam]

Read this:

Secrets Of The Red Headed Mummy

[blam]

"I would highly recomend The Mummies of Urumchi by Elizabeth Wayland Barber who is a textile expert. It conflicts with J. P. Mallory's In Search of the Indo-European however, Mallory was vague about the eastern spread of people although he spend time on the Kurgan movements. "

Victor Mair recruited many experts on this investigation of the Tarim Mummies, Barber is just one of those and wrote a very good book (The Mummies Of Urumchi) about the textiles. JP Malloy and Victor Mair wrote the excellent book The Tarim Mummies that covers the work of all the recruited experts, a required read for this subject. (They cover everything, excellent)

A well-designed Thames-and-Hudson book, The Tarim Mummies presents a thorough background on the migration of people and languages into the Tarim basin area. Like Barber's, it also includes a chapter on textiles. But the main source of interest will be Chapters 5 (The Mummies Themselves) and 10 (Who Were the Mummies?).

[blam]

"My problem with the First Emperor comes from the representations in art which don't support it. Now, a racially mixed background, that has potential."

I agree, that's probably the most unusual we can expect. I push the envelope sometimes, lol.

[CobaltBlue]

I don't think it's appropriate to use language to classify people who left no artifacts containing written language.

If you want to classify according to culture, go by the artifacts.

If you want to classify according to genetics, go by the DNA.

[CobaltBlue]

1966 "blood typing" isn't DNA analysis. Wonder if they stored the blood samples well enough for mito DNA testing?

[Fedora]

I don't think it's appropriate to use language to classify people who left no artifacts containing written language.

I tend to agree (surprise! :-) But some scholars do attempt this by extrapolating from known languages to hypothetical common ancestors, which is a somewhat speculative enterprise IMO. However, even if we don't employ that method of classification, we still have to call these groups something if we're going to talk about them, in which case if we're going to use the name "Scythian" or "Celt" we need to agree upon who we're talking about, which is why I prefer to stick with Herodotus' terminology. Incidentally, though, the Scythians and Celts did leave written artifacts:

THE PRELIMINARY REPORT ON THE DECIPHERMENT OF THE PROTO-SLAVONIC WRITING SYSTEM

The Hungarian Rune Writing (During those times Sekler runic was referred to as the "Scythian letters", because the Seklers believed themselves to be the successors of the Scythians.)

Celtic Ogham

[Fedora]

Some more on that:

A History of China

About 25,000 B.C. there appears in North China a new human type, found in upper layers in the same caves that sheltered Peking Man. This type is beyond doubt not Mongoloid, and may have been allied to the Ainu, a non-Mongol race still living in northern Japan. These, too, were a palaeolithic people, though some of their implements show technical advance. Later they disappear, probably because they were absorbed into various populations of central and northern Asia. Remains of them have been found in badly explored graves in northern Korea.

4 The Neolithic age

In the period that now followed, northern China must have gradually become arid, and the formation of loess seems to have steadily advanced. There is once more a great gap in our knowledge until, about 4000 B.C., we can trace in North China a purely Mongoloid people with a neolithic culture.