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Chris Matthew's Hardball debate: Wednesday, 29 Oct 2003

Matthews: We'll be right back to talk about the toughest case in the country right now... Mary Schiavo. Whether she should live or die.

.........news break was inserted

Matthews: The hardball debate tonight... Does Michael Schiavo have the right to remove a feeding tube, keeping his severly brain damaged wife alive? or should Governor Jeb Bush's order to KEEP her alive stand? Here's hardball coorespondent David Schuster.

[video clip of Terri sitting up and smiling, being kissed on the cheek by her mother]

Schuster: A week after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was RE-inserted, thanks to Governor Jeb Bush and the Florida legislature sidestepping the courts...

[videoclip of smiling Gov.Bush]
[videoclip of Terri's vigil supporters cheering]

Schuster: the case has become more politically charged than ever.

[videoclip of GW]President Bush: Yes I believe my brother made the right decision...

Schuster: and among those CLOSEST to Terri Schiavo, the husband who was fighting in the courts to let her die, and the PARENTS who think her life can be restored...

[clips of Michael, clip of Schindlers and attorney]

Schuster: the charges and counter-charges have become DOWNRIGHT nasty.

(file footage of father)Bob Schindler: She had a NECK injury, and she ALSO had fractured ribs, and she had ahh, I think a broken PELVIS, So she was just, pretty well BEAT UP, according to the radiologist that read the bone scan. So... you can kind of ahh, you know, connect the dots, and draw your own conclusion...

(file footage) Michael Schiavo: He's ALWAYS wanted the money. He always wanted money out of this. He even testified in the first trial, that he was angry that he didn't get any money.

Schuster: Schiavo's father acknowledges he DID want part of the million dollar settlement, but ONLY to pay for his daughter's therapy.

(file footage)Schindler: I said to him, that you have the money now, you made the committments to our family, to Terri, AND to a jury that Terri would get therapy. And he declined. And he kept saying that, he's the husband, that he can do as he wishes...

Schuster: The husband says that therapy WAS attempted, and that Schiavo's family is USING her.

(file footage)Michael: Oh well THEY get money from the right wing ACTIVISTS... from the right wing, the.. the, the right to LIFE groups.

Schuster: Against ALL of this, are the Florida courts, who must now separate fact from fiction, and decide if the legislation passed by the state is constitutional.

The question IS, does Schiavo, as her husband maintains, have a right to privacy and death? or is the state acting in Schiavo's best interest by trying to keep her alive? I'm David Schuster, for Hardball, in Washington.

[the interview is inter-spersed throughout with family video of Terri smiling, flinching, fluttering her eyes]

Matthews: Joe Tacopina, a defense attorney and Jay Sekulow, [Chris pronounced it Suck-a-loff] the chief council for American Center for Law and Justice. Let me start with Jay right now.. This issue, what is it? Whats the issue before the public RIGHT now? Is it the spouses RIGHT to end a person's life?

Sekulow: No, its really... the legislative response to this, is, is there a compelling interest in keeping her alive WHILE these guardianship proceedings continue. So, the question really is, what is the role of the parent? is that EXCLUSIVE? in other words, does the husband have the ONLY right here? And I think the answer to that SHOULD be NO.

Sekulow: But there's legal proceedings going on here. The Cali.. the Florida Supreme Court has recognised that when you've got these questions that are in DISPUTE, you should error on the side of caution. I think caution dictates here that you error on the side of KEEPING her ALIVE, while this process goes on.

Sekulow: She is NOT comatose, she is, there is, i mean the video is self-evident of what is going on... So I think you HAVE to be cautious. I think the legislature did here, and what Governor Bush did, was exercise caution, and said we're going to... Its almost like the stay of a death penalty. WHILE there is a dispute, EVEN if the courts rule, the governor can step in. That's what happened here.

Matthews: Let me be cold hearted, talking about the law here, how its going to take effect...

Matthews: The florida legislature, is conservative, its Republican. I know the politics because we all learned it back in 2000. We ALSO learned that the Florida supreme court is EXTREMELY liberal, and FUNDAMENTALY liberal. I mean they go to FIRST principles. Like the right to vote... and have your INTENTIONS of how to vote counted, even if you can't read the ballot...

Matthews: In THIS case, I understand, as David pointed out in that piece, David Schuster, the PRINCIPLE of privacy is at stake here. Will the Supreme Court of Florida, being FUNDAMENTAL in its liberalism say privacy trumps everything else?

Tacopina: Privacy, and the right to DIE, Yes, I think they WILL Chris. I mean, This is... this is a MUCH greater issue here than the one at hand. And unfortunately, like you say, politics has bec-, entered into this arena where it DOES not belong. And when you think about how tragic it is on BOTH sides, I mean, the PARENTS obviously want to hold out whatever HOPE they have to try and keep their daughter alive.

Tacopina: However let's- th, the, the real facts are, for 13 years, she's been in a vegetative state. She's NOT getting better. The-, the, the reason they keep her alive has nothing to DO with potentially finding a TREATMENT. It has to do with resolving GUARDIANSHIP issues.

Matthews: But the PARENTS disagree with that.

Sekulow: The PARENTS disagree with that, and then there's MEDICAL testimony that disagrees with it. The ONLY thing you had to do at the trial court was what's called "clear and convincing evidence". which basically says: Well, if MOST people agree that there's..., that she's in a persistent vegetative state, THATS enough.

Matthews: Wait a minute, wait a minute, I have read that theres NO [unintelligable] case that a person's been brought back from this state. Not coma, but from this vegetative state. Once you're IN it, you don't get OUT of it.

Sekulow: IF you're IN it, this is-, and I'm not a medical expert, but reading the medical testimony, a neurologist testified, at the trial, and theres been a series of three trials here, that theres a disagreement whether she's actually in FULL PVS, and the brain scans evidently...

Matthews: English?

Sekulow: Ahh, Persistent Vegetative State. And the BRAIN scans showed that there IS brain function.

[video clip shows Terri smiling and her eyes FLUTTERING as her mom kisses her cheek]

Sekulow: But here's interesting... talking about, the right to privacy, heres also, in the VERY same case, what the Florida Supreme Court said: In cases where there is SOME doubt, we must, and this is an EXACT quote, "ASSUME that a patient would choose to defend life in exercising his or her right of privacy". There WAS NO living will here. So you substitute THAT issue, and thats a BIG issue... [others start interrupting] but theres no evidence of a living will.

Matthews: OK, Ok, Let me get, let me get to the part... It ALWAYS seems there is a back story here, theres obviously a lot of PERSONAL dislike between the husband, and the parents. They dont like each other. And NEITHER of them are very likeable people, from what I can tell, they're very difficult in making their case, at least on on the tube here...

Matthews: Ahh, they're both OVERWROUGHT, and theres SO much history of anger between these people, They're almost like, you know, they're like people who've never gotten along, like the Bickerson's almost. But the question is: Is there ANY common ground here that can be found? If you were sitting down, and both of you are attorneys, and you're saying: Why don't we give her another two months, if theres NO MORE sign of life, theres no evidence of any ahh, any recurrance of CONSCIOUSNESS, we'll stop feeding her? Is there ANY way to re- [interrupted]

Tacopina: But THAT won't satisfy them, because they've HAD, and I don't say you in particular, but for thirteen YEARS, things have NOT gotten better. Things have gotten worse. Another two months is NOT going to solve this. Chris, here's the bottom line: The, the SPOUSE... she's an ADULT, Terri's is an adult, she's 39 years old. And for 13 years, she's lived this way, or NOT lived this way. Its not as if she's a MINOR, where the parents should be making this choice. The right to emergency medical treatment for instance goe to the SPOUSE, if there IS a spouse. NOT to the PARENTS of an adult.

Sekulow: But, but questions of life or death, THATS what we're talking about here... This isn't a question of somebody needing STICHES, this is a life and death question. To say that the parents have NO INPUT, is rediculous. Its a guardianship issue Chris. Isn't it a situation where you WANT to see to develop, that, that you EXPLORE all these things... the PARENTS are willing to take guardianship AND responsibility. Here, the husband doesn't want that. Without getting into that issue, while this issue is pending, DONT break the stay.

Matthews: Prediction... prediction on the constitutionality ... Will this be ruled unconstitutional under Florida law, and the right to privacy?

Tacopina: Yes. I believe it will. I believe SHE will be ABLE to Chris, ahh, ahh die.

Sekulow: I think the courts are going to weigh this CAREFULLY. You're right Chris, the Florida Supreme Court is VERY liberal. But there is ALSO a FUNDAMENTAL issue of choice here, and I think the choice HAS to go to protecting her life. You've got to error on the side of caution. I think they're going to be up to-

Matthews: How long? How long do you error?

Sekulow: Ahh, it could be... this could be a case thats over with actually fairly quickly... It could go on for a couple months, I think, you're on a TRO status here... Its going to go quick Chris.

Tacopina: A matter of a couple months Chris

Matthews: TRO? English again?

Both lawyers in harmony: Temporary Restraining Order (everyone laughs, and jokes about lawyer-speak)

Sekulow: But, you know, the fact of the matter is this case is coming up QUICKLY through the Florida Supreme Court. I would expect in months, thats why-

Matthews: You know what I think is the human issue here? Watching it? Her eyes flickering... You can say ALL you want about brain damage, She SEEMS like she is alive.

Tacopina: Yea, yea, but that was two years ago Chris.

Sekulow: But there's been no change in her medical condition since then. Thanks.

Matthews: Jay Sekulow, Joe Tacopina, thank you guys.

[Transcripted for education and discussion purposes only, not guaranteed to be 100% accurate. This debate was in person with no satellite delays. Debaters interrupted or talked over each other only a little.]
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Recent interviews/excerpts:
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"Hannity and Colmes" - Tuesday 10-14-03 --> (Terri's father) Bob Schindler: "MONEY and FOUL PLAY"

"On the Record with Greta" - Friday 10-24-03 --> Forensic Pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden: "Potassium imbalance UNLIKELY - HEALTHY heart - NECK TRAUMA"

"At Large with Geraldo Rivera" Sunday 10-26-03 --> Florida AG Christopher Darden and Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz: "You have eternity to be dead; You only have a limited amount of time to live"

"Hannity and Colmes" - Monday 10-27-03 --> (father) Bob Schindler and (neurologist) Dr. William Hammesfahr: "She absolutely CAN be rehabilitated -clearly NEVER had heart attack -Emergency room: damaged neck"

"On the Record with Greta" - Monday 10-27-03 --> (attorney) Pat Anderson: "BIG FIGHT -attempted STRANGULATION"

"On the Record with Greta" - Tuesday 10-28-03 --> (attorney) Pat Anderson and (brother) Bobby Schindler: "failing marriage -DIVORCE imminent -Potassium explained":

"Hardball with with Chris Matthews" - Wednesday 10-29-03 --> (attorney for ACLJ) Jay Sekulow and (attorney FOR death) Joe Tacopina: "Matthews: I think the human issue here is... her eyes flickering... I think she's ALIVE":

...just added transcript of Matthews Hardball interview here "Matthews: I think the human issue here is... her eyes flickering... I think she's ALIVE"
post #252, with Jay Sekulow (Chris pronounced it suck-a-loff) of the ACLJ (American Center for Law and Justice)

Thanks very much for posting the transcript, FL_engineer.

I'd like to ask (the very loud and obnoxious) Matthews why he found it necessary to make a comment on the emotional expressions of the parties involve...(" and theres SO much history of anger between these people, ").

Schiavo wants to get Terri's death done and over with...
The Schindlers are fighting to keep her alive...
so, of course, there are emotions involved.

Matthews could just as well have told the soldiers landing at Salerno in WWII to smile (kind of "friendly-like") as they got mowed down by the Germans.

Thank you for posting the transcript. I had missed it. I really appreciate it. I read the whole thing. Jay Sekulow is a great guy and spokesperson. I hope he'll be on Larry King Live with the Schindler's this week.

It is just appalling that they can talk so casually about ending a person's life when it seems that most of them see that she isn't really in a vegetative state. Maybe I'm an idiot and am missing some incredibly lofty nuance of the Constitution, but I fail to see how doing whatever is necessary to defend the life of a citizen, ,making a law in this case, can possibly be construed as unconstitutional. They are lawmakers. It is what they do. What is it that the screaming meanies THINK they're supposed to do?

FL_engineer:

Thanks for the transcripts post!!!!!!

You are THE SOURCE on this subject.

Harv

Thanks for the ping!