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'Dr. Chaos' found with cyanide cache
UPI | 3/12/02 | AL SWANSON

Posted on 03/12/2002 9:48:40 AM PST by kattracks

CHICAGO, Mar 12, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- A Wisconsin computer worker, who goes by the online name of "Dr. Chaos," Tuesday faced charges he stored more than a pound of powdered cyanide in an underground subway storage room in the heart of the city's downtown Loop.

Police found a vial of cyanide on Joseph Konopka when he was arrested with a 15-year-old juvenile at 2:15 a.m. Saturday morning in a steam tunnel under the Education Building at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Konopka, 25, an unemployed computer hacker accused of vandalizing power stations and radio towers in Wisconsin, was scheduled to appear at a federal hearing on Wednesday. He was being held without bond.

The Chicago-area juvenile reportedly told authorities Konopka had stored poison in the subway and had equipment to change locks and cut keys.

About a quarter pound of potentially lethal potassium cyanide and a pound of sodium cyanide compounds were found in a subway storage room. Potassium cyanide combined with hydrochloric or sulfuric acid produces lethal hydrogen cyanide gas, the same gas used to execute condemned prisoners in gas chambers.

"There is legal possession and there is illegal possession," said U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald. "It is a crime to possess something if you don't have a legal purpose to possess it."

The Chicago Transit Authority's Blue Line was shut down for three hours Saturday night as FBI and police officers wearing protective hazardous materials suits searched the mass transit tunnels. They recovered Konopka's belongings, which included a stolen laptop computer equipped with a wireless modem, flashlights, hand tools and a battery-powered drill.

"He's a geek," Police Superintendent Terry Hillard told a news conference Monday night. "Our public transportation unit has walked every inch of the rapid transit lines in the subway and have not found anything that was unusual other than what the FBI confiscated the other night."

Hillard described Konopka as more nerd than terrorist, and said he never indicated he intended to harm anyone. Konopka reportedly had been living in the subway since November and had been ticketed for trespassing.

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel said Konopka, who called himself "Dr. Chaos on the Internet," was suspected of being leader of a group known as the "Realm of Chaos," which recruited members online.

He is charged with acts of vandalism in at least six Wisconsin counties, including starting a fire on a gas pipeline, blacking out 1,700 homes in Marquette County by throwing coiled barbed wire into an electrical substation and break-ins and thefts at radio and television stations.

"By all accounts, his IQ is extraordinary; he's intelligent and very capable of accomplishing some destructive things," Door County District Attorney Tim Funnell told the Journal Sentinel. "He's sort of an anarchist. He's disillusioned with society and wants to wreak havoc on government systems."

His grandmother, Marian, said Konopka dropped out of school in the eighth-grade and earned his high school diploma while in jail. He formerly worked as lead technician and systems administrator for a Green Bay technology firm.

By AL SWANSON

Copyright 2002 by United Press International.





TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: biowarfare; blackshirts; computersecurityin; illinois; transportationlist; wisconsin
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1 posted on 03/12/2002 9:48:40 AM PST by kattracks
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To: kattracks
Hillard described Konopka as more nerd than terrorist...

Yeah? So was the Unibomber. But the effects of their actions still can be called terrorism.

2 posted on 03/12/2002 9:53:40 AM PST by texasbluebell
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To: kattracks
Fry him. Sending a repetitive harsh message in the form of execution for this kind of act will make other thugs teetering on the terror idea to think twice.
3 posted on 03/12/2002 9:55:29 AM PST by TADSLOS
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To: kattracks
"It is a crime to possess something if you don't have a legal purpose to possess it." Hrmmmmm...who decides what a "legal purpose" for something is? I wonder what he thinks "legal purposes" for firearms are?
4 posted on 03/12/2002 9:57:54 AM PST by Constantine XIII
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To: Constantine XIII
Check the labelling on any household chemical. Using them in any way not consistent with the approve uses on the label may constitute a felony, i.e. don't sniff paint or make a bomb out of draino.
5 posted on 03/12/2002 10:23:43 AM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: Britton J Wingfield
I saw a label on a product we bought, that had been manufactured in Japan... it read, "No to be used for the other use."...

Never did figure out what the 'Other Use' was... ;0)

6 posted on 03/12/2002 10:29:06 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks
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To: texasbluebell
This is in my neck of the woods. Konopka is an anarchist. These stories might shed a bit more light on the guy than a story from UPI.

Green Bay Press Gazette




Posted Mar. 12, 2002 
‘Dr. Chaos’ arrested with cyanide 
Chemical stored in Chicago transit tunnel 

By Andy Nelesen

Press-Gazette and The Associated Press

Previous charges

Pending Wisconsin circuit court cases involving Joseph Konopka, 25, of De Pere:
• Shawano County, filed July 2001, felony bail jumping
• Door County, filed March 2001, four felony counts of burglary, three counts of theft and a misdemeanor count of criminal damage to property.
• Kewaunee County, filed February 2001, arson, two counts of felony theft, felony burglary, three counts of misdemeanor criminal damage to property.
• Shawano County, filed February 2001, six counts of felony criminal damage to property, two counts of soliciting a child to commit a felony, arson, burglary, two misdemeanor counts of criminal damage to property.
• Marquette County, filed February 2001, felony criminal damage to utility property.
• Kewaunee County, filed January 2001, four counts of felony criminal damage to utility property.
Convictions
• Brown County, 1998, misdemeanor disorderly conduct conviction reduced from felony burglary.
• Waukesha County, 1996, entry to locked vehicle, misdemeanor theft and three counts of misdemeanor charge of criminal damage to property.
• Brown County, 1994, two counts of misdemeanor negligent handling of burning materials, reduced from multiple felony charges of the same type.
• Brown County, 1994, felony negligent handling of burning materials, and misdemeanor breaking and entering — 
Wisconsin Circuit Court Access
What is potassium cyanide?

Potassium cyanide is an extremely poisonous white-crystalline compound. It is used in electroplating and in metallurgy for extracting gold. Also used as an insecticide. It is fatal if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through skin. Contact with acid liberates poisonous gas. It causes burns to skin, eyes and respiratory tract. Affects blood, cardiovascular system and thyroid.

Inhalation symptoms

In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink-to-red skin color. However, if a physical injury or lack of oxygen occurs, the skin color may turn blue. Cyanide poisoning symptoms are reddening of eyes and pupil dilation. Blue discoloration seems to be associated with severe poisoning.

Potential health effects

The substance inhibits cellular respiration and may cause blood, central nervous system and thyroid changes. May cause headache, weakness, dizziness, labored breathing, nausea and vomiting, which may be followed by irregular heartbeat, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma and death.Source: Material Safety Data Sheet, Mallinckrodt Baker Inc., Phillipsburg, N.J.


A former De Pere man accused of vandalizing Northeastern Wisconsin power stations was charged Monday with storing deadly powdered cyanide in an underground passage that is part of Chicago’s mass transit system.

Joseph Konopka, also known as “Dr. Chaos,” allegedly took over a Chicago Transit Authority storage room under the downtown district and stored sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide there. When Konopka was arrested, he was carrying a vial containing 1 gram of sodium cyanide-sodium carbonate, the FBI said. A juvenile arrested with Konopka told FBI agents Konopka had taken over an area within a CTA underground passageway to store additional chemicals.

Konopka, 25, appeared before U.S. Magistrate Judge Edward A. Bobrick on Monday night and was ordered held pending a hearing Wednesday. He was charged with possession of a chemical weapon.

Konopka was said to be unemployed and had been living in the subway under the downtown district for several weeks. He has been wanted in Wisconsin for more than nine months on a litany of felony and misdemeanor charges since failing to appear in Door County Court in July 2001.

Konopka’s uncle, Dan Konopka of De Pere, said he doesn’t believe his nephew was out to hurt people. All his trouble had been doing damage to things, not to people.

“Joe has never hurt anyone,” Dan Konopka said late Monday. “All of his stuff before, the vandalism, I believe, he was showing off for his young friends. He was a few years behind in his development. I think he got a big kick out of showing off, saying ‘Look, I can make the town go dark.’”

Konopka, a former systems administrator for a Green Bay computer networking firm, led a group of teens on a crime spree of burglaries, arson, electrical outages and vandalism of utility equipment and radio towers in 1999 and 2000, police said.

After his initial arrest, Konopka told investigators he met and recruited youths through Internet chat rooms and a Web site called Realm of Chaos. His family, including his aunt, Audrey Konopka of De Pere, had posted $18,000 bail in Konopka’s various cases. An FBI affidavit filed in federal court said University of Illinois-Chicago police arrested Konopka and the juvenile Saturday when they were found in a steam tunnel under the UIC Education Building.

University police had staked out the steam tunnel after a rash of burglaries on campus in recent weeks.Bomb technicians from the FBI and Chicago police found the locked room that provided access to an underground CTA passageway where Konopka allegedly stored chemicals, the FBI said.

The passageway was under Dearborn Street, a block from the federal courthouse where Konopka’s hearing was held Monday.

Among other things, about a quarter of a pound of potassium cyanide and about nine-tenths of a pound of sodium cyanide were discovered in the passageway. The FBI said the chemicals could kill people if ingested or converted to gas.

Chicago police Superintendent Terry Hillard said the chemicals had posed “no immediate danger” to riders on the CTA’s Blue Line, which was closed for several hours while police and agents looked for the passage.Konopka was interviewed Saturday night and admitted he had keys to various CTA substations, the FBI said. It quoted Konopka as saying he had been taking photos of various CTA underground tunnels and posting them on the Internet.

Police believe the new allegations. “All I know is that he was capable of anything,” said Lt. Dave Cornelius, an investigator with the Kewaunee County Sheriff’s Department who worked on the Dr. Chaos case. “He had the ability to … work with chemicals. All the guys that we talked to were deathly afraid of him and the things he could do.”

Four teens were convicted of misdemeanor charges in Kewaunee County in connection with crimes allegedly committed with Konopka.

Brown County Sheriff’s Sgt. Lance Catalano said detectives found chemicals in Konopka’s house when they searched for evidence in 2001.Catalano did not know the specific inventory of chemicals seized.

Dan Konopka said he hasn’t heard anything official from Illinois authorities. The last time he saw Joseph was the July weekend the young man fled. The family had spent most of the week trying to get his bail revoked, but was unsuccessful.

“I said ‘Bye’ to him,” Dan Konopka said. “He knew to some extent that we were attempting to stop it. Finally at 11 o’clock, he was in the yard and I said, ‘I could call a cop to come after you … I hope you make it on your own.’”

The elder Konopka knew there was a good chance he’d never see his nephew again. After Joseph Konopka left, he “fell off the face of the earth.”“I knew we wouldn’t have a clue where he was … whether he was dead or alive … if we’d ever see him again,” Dan Konopka said. 

Chicago Tribune

Chicago Tribune Police find cyanide stash in CTA tunnel
Wisconsin man, teen face charges

By Matthew Walberg 
and Eric Ferkenhoff 
Tribune staff reporters
Published March 12, 2002

A Wisconsin computer worker who dubbed himself Dr. Chaos was charged Monday with possessing a chemical weapon after authorities found a cache of cyanide in a CTA Blue Line subway tunnel in the heart of the Loop.

Authorities say they found a cyanide capsule on Joseph Daniel Konopka, 25, when he and a youth were arrested Saturday in a steam tunnel at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Shortly after the arrest, the 15-year-old told police there were more chemicals stashed in the subway.

[] 
When police shut down the subway tunnels for three hours Saturday night, they publicly said they were searching for the possessions of a homeless man who had been living in the tunnel.

In fact, FBI agents and Chicago police officers in self-contained breathing suits were combing the tunnels for chemical weapons and booby traps they believed might be set for them, according to police documents.

Although they found no booby traps, they did find a box of chemicals, including about 1 1/4 pounds of cyanide compounds that potentially could be combined with other substances to create a toxic cloud, officials said.

But at a press conference Monday night in the lobby of the Dirksen Federal Building, U.S. Atty. Patrick J. Fitzgerald and Chicago Police Supt. Terry Hillard downplayed any danger to the public from the discovery of the cyanide hidden in an underground CTA passageway beneath Dearborn Street between Washington and Monroe Streets.

"Our public transportation unit has walked every inch of the rapid transit lines in the subway and have not found anything that was unusual other than what the FBI confiscated the other night," Hillard said.

Added Fitzgerald: "It's a situation we take seriously, but we don't want to blow it out of proportion."

Hillard could not say what motive lay behind the hiding of the cyanide. "I'm not a psychologist," he said. "We know that the chemicals were recovered, and at the present time that's the only thing I can say."

Konopka was wanted on several warrants from Wisconsin for allegedly staging attacks on a television station transmitter, electric power substations and natural gas pipelines. Many of those attacks fizzled, however.

"What we're looking at is someone who styles himself as an anarchist, as a domestic terrorist, who tries to live up to his computer moniker, which is Dr. Chaos," said Door County, Wis., District Attorney Tim Funnell.

Konopka allegedly would recruit teenagers to help him carry out his crimes, police said. A former systems administrator for a Green Bay computer firm, Konopka would use Internet chat rooms to find recruits and would sometimes hold meetings after hours at the Green Bay company, Funnell said.

In an interview with the FBI on Sunday, Konopka admitted he led a group of associates in Wisconsin known as the "Realm of Chaos" and that he had damaged power substations and communication facilities, the charges said.

Stung in stakeout

UIC officers had set up a stakeout after a series of burglaries and arrested Konopka and the youth in a utility tunnel at the UIC Education Building around 2:15 a.m. Saturday, UIC Police Chief Bruce Lewis said.

Konopka admitted he "re-keyed" a CTA storage area where he kept cyanide and other chemicals, authorities said. He also kept a stolen laptop computer that he used for "war driving," accessing networks without permission using a wireless modem, the FBI said.

Police and FBI agents then searched the Blue and Red line tunnels late Saturday night. Police sources said Konopka also had a number of homemade keys that gave him access to various areas of the CTA system.

The charges show that investigators went to the underground location and found seven boxes marked as containing sodium cyanide, potassium cyanide, mercuric sulfate and other chemicals. Authorities said they recovered nearly a pound of sodium cyanide and about one-fourth of a pound of potassium cyanide.

"That's a significant amount," said John Arnold, a chemistry professor at the University of California at Berkeley. When mixed with other chemicals that are readily available, those cyanide compounds break down and form deadly hydrogen cyanide gas.

At the time of their arrests, Konopka and the boy also were in possession of burglary tools and a digital camera they were using to shoot pictures of the UIC tunnels.

A source familiar with the case said police also found "note pad sketches" of "L" stations, schematics of electrical connections in the subway system.

In addition, he had a Global Positioning System device and a scanner that was tuned to Commonwealth Edison Co. frequencies, according to a police source.

In federal court Monday night, prosecutors said they will seek to hold Konopka in custody. A detention hearing was scheduled for Wednesday.

The 15-year-old boy was charged in Juvenile Court with criminal trespass to property and burglary, both misdemeanors, and released to home confinement, a spokeswoman for the Cook County state's attorney's office said.

Konopka, who lived with an aunt in an unincorporated area of Brown County near De Pere, Wis., was well known to police in Wisconsin and was being sought on more than a dozen warrants, including felonies and bail jumping.

Last year, he appeared in court charged with damaging an electrical switch that caused brownouts in the small town of Algoma, Wis., and also charged by Shawano County authorities with opening a valve at a natural gas facility and trying to ignite the escaping gas with a chemical compound.

A Shawano County Sheriff's investigator said the compound ignited as planned, but the gas was escaping so forcefully it blew out the flame.

In another case, he was charged with trying to overheat a television transmitter. Station employees noticed the problem before the transmitter was damaged, however.

He is also wanted for allegedly blowing up a warning device outside a nuclear power plant, according to authorities and records in Wisconsin.

1996 conviction

His only known conviction was in 1996. Then 19, Konopka was sentenced to 10 months in jail and three years probation for taking a destructive ride through a Wisconsin suburb, tearing down mailboxes and lampposts, as well as crash his car into garages and trying to break into cars.

Other investigative sources described Konopka as a computer worker who has apparently become disenchanted with the excesses of today's high-speed technological society. One source compared his ideology to that of Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber. "He's in the mold of the Unabomber," he said.

One of the criminal complaints filed against him in Wisconsin quotes Konopka as telling an accomplice that "if he can't have the items, then why should other people have them, and so to prevent that, Konopka drove him to different locations and instructed him how to do damage to these locations."

One former employer remembered Konopka as a stellar employee who never missed work.

"It seems like he must have two lives," said Dennis Challee, owner of Infinity Technology, a software and Internet company where Konopka started in customer support and rose to systems development. "None of this makes any sense. He was a great employee."

Konopka's family lives on 15 acres outside of De Pere on an old farm. He dropped out of school in the 8th grade and later got his GED through the Waukesha County Jail.

His grandmother, Marian Konopka, said she was surprised to hear about the cyanide.

"Anything else that boy ever did, he never did anything to harm anybody," she said.

Tribune reporters Sean Hamill in De Pere, Wis., and Matt O'Connor and Ray Gibson in Chicago contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2002, Chicago Tribune

7 posted on 03/12/2002 10:37:26 AM PST by Catspaw
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To: kattracks
""There is legal possession and there is illegal possession," said U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald. "It is a crime to possess something if you don't have a legal purpose to possess it."

THIS is the core of all problems with law enfarcement today. Unfortunately law enfarcement officers act as "judge and jury" when trying to determine "whats a legal use".

8 posted on 03/12/2002 10:38:45 AM PST by Tattooed Soul
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To: kattracks
(Police Chief) Hillard described Konopka as more nerd than terrorist, and said he never indicated he intended to harm anyone.

Uh, Earth to Hillard, what would you call this? He is charged with acts of vandalism in at least six Wisconsin counties, including starting a fire on a gas pipeline, blacking out 1,700 homes in Marquette County by throwing coiled barbed wire into an electrical substation and break-ins and thefts at radio and television stations.

But according to the Police Chief, he never indicated he intended to harm anyone....Someone pull that man's head out of his pants. He obviously has a vision impairment if he can't see Konopka for what he is...a geek, a nerd, AND a potentially very dangerous person!

9 posted on 03/12/2002 10:39:27 AM PST by lsee
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To: lsee
He also caused a brownout in Algoma, Wisconsin (Kewaunee County). I wouldn't be this guy's cheerleader. He and his teenaged pals were a crime wave around here.
10 posted on 03/12/2002 10:41:21 AM PST by Catspaw
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To: kattracks
Hillard described Konopka as more nerd than terrorist, and said he never indicated he intended to harm anyone.

Say WHAT???

He is charged with acts of vandalism in at least six Wisconsin counties, including starting a fire on a gas pipeline, blacking out 1,700 homes in Marquette County by throwing coiled barbed wire into an electrical substation and break-ins and thefts at radio and television stations.

"He's sort of an anarchist. He's disillusioned with society and wants to wreak havoc on government systems."

Yeah, just your run-of-the-mill computer nerd. No indication he'd want to hurt anybody.

11 posted on 03/12/2002 10:41:53 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Tattooed Soul
THIS is the core of all problems with law enfarcement today. Unfortunately law enfarcement officers act as "judge and jury" when trying to determine "whats a legal use".

Yes, of course, you're right.

What's the "legal use" of knocking off a gauge at a natural gas substation, then trying to ignite the gas? He had a really big wok and wanted to make a humongous stir fry for his buddies?

12 posted on 03/12/2002 10:46:09 AM PST by Catspaw
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To: kattracks
Konopka, 25, an unemployed computer hacker

Is there such a thing as an employed computer hacker?

13 posted on 03/12/2002 11:11:41 AM PST by CaptRon
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To: Constantine XIII
"There is legal possession and there is illegal possession," said U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald. "It is a crime to possess something if you don't have a legal purpose to possess it."

Ain't that just Amazing?
They have made it a crime to possess naturally occuring chemicals and Elements of the Periodic Table. Atoms. The State thinks it owns the nature of the Universe :)

Very interesting, and immoral.
One can only get away with cheating reality so long....

14 posted on 03/12/2002 11:16:53 AM PST by DAnconia55
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To: lsee
We should immediately eliminate all "potentially very dangerous persons" post haste.
15 posted on 03/12/2002 11:18:02 AM PST by DAnconia55
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To: DAnconia55

 Shawano County Sheriff's Department

(Most Wanted)

SHAWANO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE MOST WANTED

20 "WANTED FELONS" have been captured since November 1, 2000

JOSEPH D. KONOPKA  (EXTREME CAUTION) Victor J. Teller (CAPTURED)
Clayton E. Neconish Christine W. Stewart
Cecelia R. Peters George Peters
Javier Rodriguez Darryl D. Smith
Ronald K. Verhagen Kenyota K. Amos
Theodore J. Waupekenay Dale R. Weber
Avery A. Gomeyosh Pallex, Kevin J.
John M. Dess III Kenneth E. Zunker Jr.  (CAPTURED)
Vincent W. Fish Jr. Bradley J. Erickson

BACK TO SHERIFF'S HOME PAGE

Sheriff Robert A. Schmidt advises that the persons listed below are considered as "WANTED".  This list is current at the time of posting. This list will change as needed.  If you know the whereabouts or have any knowledge of any of these persons, call your local police agency; or, call the Shawano County Sheriff's Office at 715.526.3111.  DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND ANY OF THE LISTED PERSONS.

If you see your name listed below, you can contact the Sheriff's department or your local law enforcement agency to take care of the warrant.

"Click" on the picture to see enhanced view

wpe2.jpg (19306 bytes)Joseph D. Konopka (06.24.1976) AKA Tim Whiting, Doctor Chaos, Doc Chaos, Doc Chaz.  Konopka is wanted for Felony Failure to Appear on multiple Burglary, Theft and Criminal Damage charges (Door County); Felony Bail Jumping and Felony Criminal Damage/Solicitation of a Child to Commit a Felony/Arson (Shawano County); Felony Burglary and Criminal Damage charges (FBI); Felony Failure to Appear for Pretrial Conference (Kewaunee County); and, Felony Criminal Damage to Property - Business (Marquette County).  Konopka's last known address was:  1009 Adams Drive, De Pere, WI.  If you have any information concerning this person, please contact your local law enforcement agency or call the Shawano County Sheriff's Office at 715.526.3111.  DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND ANY OF THE LISTED PERSONS.

16 posted on 03/12/2002 11:24:47 AM PST by grasshopper
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To: Britton J Wingfield
So it's ok for the ATF to arrest people who have ammonia-based cleaners for illegally possessing "bomb-making materials"? Certainly cyanide is a different story, bit it's the JUSTIFICATION that was given that I don't like. Never smart to let the camel into the tent. ;o)
17 posted on 03/12/2002 11:27:31 AM PST by Constantine XIII
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To: Constantine XIII
"It is a crime to possess something if you don't have a legal purpose to possess it." Hrmmmmm...who decides what a "legal purpose" for something is? I wonder what he thinks "legal purposes" for firearms are?

I used to go to the chemical supply store and buy five pound cans of powdered sodium cyanide. I never received so much as a second glance from the supplier. I had a business card and a legally formed corporation, but anyone could do that for a couple of hundred bucks. I used the stuff for chemical experimentation purposes, but I also thought that it strange that I could obtain such a dangerous chemical so easily. That said, my use of the chemical was as innocent as it was possible to be.

18 posted on 03/12/2002 11:31:55 AM PST by lafroste
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To: Catspaw
“Joe has never hurt anyone,” Dan Konopka said late Monday. “All of his stuff before, the vandalism, I believe, he was showing off for his young friends. He was a few years behind in his development. I think he got a big kick out of showing off, saying ‘Look, I can make the town go dark.’”

Translation - I am either so deeply in denial I cannot be trusted to know my own name, or I am a hard-core leftist that cannot place blame on anyone.

Either way, we should lock this guy up with his nephew because he is clearly part of the problem.

19 posted on 03/12/2002 11:51:53 AM PST by Cable225
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To: CaptRon
Despite his criminal record, he was employed by Infinity, a local computer networking business:

Konopka, a former systems administrator for a Green Bay computer networking firm, led a group of teens on a crime spree of burglaries, arson, electrical outages and vandalism of utility equipment and radio towers in 1999 and 2000, police said.

What he would do is that after Konopka would get off work, he & his teen groupies and partners in crime would use the business' facilities to hack.

Nice work if you can get it, I suppose.

20 posted on 03/12/2002 11:55:09 AM PST by Catspaw
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