TULIP and why I disagree with it

The term "Calvinism" is used by some people who do not hold Calvin's teaching on predestination and do not understand exactly what Calvin taught.

Dr. Loraine Boettner in his book, 'The reformed Doctrine of Predestination', says, "The Calvinistic system especially emphasized five distinct doctrines. These are technically known as 'The Five Points of Calvinism.' And they are the main pillars upon which the superstructure rests."

Dr. Boettner further says, "The five points may be more easily remembered if they are associated with the word T-U-L-I-P;

I have heard people say, "I am a one-point Calvinist, a two-point Calvinist" and so on. Look at each one of these views as taught by Calvin and then see what the Bible has to say on each point. As with any Doctrine, it is no stronger than the foundation upon which it is built and it'll either be built upon sand or the Rock!

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner could not repent and come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Savior, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ.

The Bible teaches total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9,

While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it no where teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was (John 5:40),

Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you CAN come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you WILL come to Him.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem. . how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!" (Matt 23:37).

Here again notice, He did not say, "How often I would have gathered you together, but you COULD not." No. He said, "Ye WOULD not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that hearth say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me?" Why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me"?

Some Calvinists use John 6:44 in an effort to prove total inability. Here the Bible says,

But the Bible makes it plain in John 12:32 that Christ will draw all men unto Himself,

All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Savior. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. (Jn 1:9) Rom. 1:19, 20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the gospel.

So in the final analysis, men GO to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Him - "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Savior is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural. The foundation of this doctrine is very shaky when looked at in light of what the Scriptures say and not what some men have said.

By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to go to Heaven, while others are elected to go to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.

This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes, Book III, chapter 23,"

"...Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is offered only to those who were foreordained to be saved.

This teaching insists that we need not try to win men to the Lord because men cannot be saved unless God has planned for them to be saved. And if God has planned for them to be eternally lost, they will not come to Christ.

There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation - particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Savior Himself would come - and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.

God in His foreknowledge knows who will trust Jesus Christ as Savior, and He has predestined to see that they are justified and glorified. He will keep all those who trust Him and see that they are glorified. But the doctrine that God elected some men to Hell, that they were born to be damned by God's own choice, is a radical heresy not taught anywhere in the Bible.

In the booklet entitled TULIP by Vic Lockman, Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stopped in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads:

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads:

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a witness for Him and to practice soul winning. Proverbs 11:30 says,

Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills for others to go to Hell. NO. The Bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. 2 Pet. 3:9 says that He is

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Those who teach that God would only have some to be saved, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible. Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice?

Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as He chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Savior. John 3:36 says,

"He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on Him."

Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Savior. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Savior.

By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible, and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.

"He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5-6 says,

"and said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

"and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."

No man will ever look at Jesus and say, "You didn't want to be my Savior." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Savior of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10 says,

"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those who believe."

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.:

There are two "ALLS" in this verse. The first "ALL" speaks of the universal fact of sin -

The "ALL" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers the same crowd that the "ALL" in the last part of that verse covers. If we all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.

Not only did He bear the sins of us all, but the Bible plainly teaches that He died for the whole world. Look at I John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If that isn't plain enough, the Bible says His death was for every man; (Hebrews 2:9)

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN" .

Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First Timothy 2:5-6 says,

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all. . . ."

"He that spared not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

"that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all."

John 3:16 has been called "the heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me.

Some argue that if Jesus died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. No. The death of Christ on the cross was sufficient for all, but it is efficient only to those who believe. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross made it possible for every man everywhere to be saved. but only those who believe that He died to pay their sin debt and who trust Him completely fro salvation will be saved.

Everybody is potentially saved, but everybody is not actually saved until he recognizes that he is a sinner, believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the sin debt, rose from the grave on the third day, and trust Him completely for salvation.

"all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and He let Jesus die for that elect group.

And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.

The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace." That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."

Grace means "God's unmerited favor." Grace is an attitude, not a power. If Calvin had talked about the irresistible drawing power of God, it would have made more sense. But instead, he represents grace as the irresistible act of God compelling a man to be saved who does not want to be saved, so that a man has no choice in the matter at all, except as God forcibly puts a choice in his mind. Calvinism teaches that man has no part in salvation, and cannot possibly cooperate with God in the matter. In no sense of the word and at no stage of the work does salvation depend upon the will or work of man or wait for the determination of his will.

Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Prov.29:1 states,

"He, that being often reproved hardens his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."

Notice the word "OFTEN" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved. . . ." This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often.

But the Bible says he "hardens his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.

"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes."

Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused. . .but ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out His hand and no man regards it?

Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, and they refuse His call. John 5:40 says,

That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to Him. In Acts 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51,

"Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

To these Jewish leaders, Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." So here were people; some of whom had seen Jesus and heard Him preach; others who had heard Peter at Pentecost; others who had heard Stephen and other Spirit-filled men preaching with great power. And what had they done? They were stiff necked and uncircumcised in their heart and ears. That is, they were stubborn and rebellious against God. The Bible plainly says, "They resisted the holy Ghost."

Notice the words of Stephen in verse 51, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Here the Bible teaches that not only were these Jewish leaders resisting the Holy ghost, but that their fathers before them had also resisted the Holy Spirit. Stephen says that all the way from Abraham, through the history of the Jewish nation, down to the time of Christ, unconverted Jews had resisted the Holy Spirit.

But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ. John 1:12 says,

"But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her brood, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ. "I would, but ye would not" does not fit the teaching of irresistible grace. So people do resist the Holy Spirit. They do refuse to come to Christ. They do harden their necks. They do refuse when God calls.

That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not force it upon anyone who doesn't want it.

The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has ever- lasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend upon his perseverance.

I do not know a single Bible verse that says anything about the saints' persevering, but there are several Bible verses that mention the fact that the saints have been preserved. Perseverance is one thing. Preservation is another. No. The saints do not persevere; they are preserved.

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. . . ."

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Bible makes it plain that the believer is kept. He does not keep himself. First Peter 1:4-5 states:

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Now that doesn't sound like the PERSEVERANCE of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Father's hand, and they are safe - not because they persevere, but because they are in the Father's hand.

"I do not believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the saints. I believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the Savior."

To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

So I disagree with all 5 points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it. There is a belief that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. In his book, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Dr. Loraine Boettner says on page 47,

"There are really only three systems which claim to set forth the way of salvation through Christ [And he names them]:

"(1) Universalism, that all will be saved. (2) Arminianism, which holds that Christ died equally and indiscriminately for every individual. . ., that saving grace is not necessarily permanent, but those who are loved of God, ransomed by by God, and born of the Holy Spirit may (let God wish and strive ever so much to the contrary) throw away all and perish eternally; and,

"Only two are held by Christians." That is Calvin's position and Arminius' position."

Calvinists would like to make people believe that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. And since the Arminian position does such violence to the grace of God, many preferred to call themselves Calvinists. But a person doesn't have to take either position.

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says,

In conclusion, let me say that Calvin and those who followed him claimed to believe and follow the Bible. They claimed to find at least a germ of the Calvinist doctrine in the Scriptures. But a careful student will find that again and again they go beyond the Scripture, and that Calvinism is a philosophy developed by man and depending on fallible logic and frail, human reasoning, with the perversion of some Scriptures, the misuse of others, and the total ignoring of many clear Scriptures. Calvin did teach many wonderful, true doctrines of Scripture.

It is true that God foreknows everything that will happen in the world. It is true that God definitely ordained and determined some events ahead of time and selected some individuals for His purposes.

It is certain that people are saved by grace, and are kept by the power of God. That far Calvinists may well prove their doctrines by Scriptures. but beyond that, Calvinism goes into a realm of human philosophy.

It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.

Thus, 'total depravity' is redefined to mean 'total inability'

It seems to me that it is evident from scripture that all men are conceived and born sinners, and rightly under God's Wrath. They cannot do anything but sin, and are incapable of doing anything truly good. They are sinners both by choice and by nature, enslaved to the sin they are born in. Unless God, by His Holy Spirit, regenerates their hearts, they will not turn to God, nor are they even able to do so. They will not seek God, or entertain any notion of seeking Him, their natures being so corrupted that it would never occur to them to seek Him, and they would reject any such idea should it be presented to them.

Therefore, since man will not seek God, God MUST make the first move. Man's will is corrupted as well as his nature. Man cannot have the will necessary to choose God, because it, along with everything else is corrupted, twisted, and bent. God, by His Holy Spirit, unbends, straightens, and cleanses his will (Efficacious Grace), not to FORCE the man to choose God, but to make him ABLE to choose God. When God does that, the man will choose God.

The Arminian position seems to teach that this Grace is given to all men, as though God owed it to them. God owes Grace to no one. That He bestows it on even one person is entirely due to His Mercy, for all are rightly condemned to die for their sins. The Arminain may protest and ask how it is that God can save some and not others. The real question is, why should he save any? That He does is God's Grace, God's Mercy, and God's decision. It is evident that God has not, in fact, saved all, for salvation was only given to a few in the OT, and it is in the NT that more have been saved. It is impertinent in the extreme to accuse God of injustice for doing as He Wills with what is, after all, His own Creation. All men are rightly judged for their sins, so injustice cannot flow from that, in that all deserve to die. If He chooses to rescue some from that fate, how is that unjust, seeing that His Justice dmenads even their deaths? If He chooses to override His Justice by His Mercy shown to a few, it only confirms His Justice, and His Sovereignty over His Creation. Those who have been granted mercy cannot glory in it, for it was not by their power that they were shown mercy. Those who have not been shown mercy cannot claim unfair treatment, for they know they are rightly condemned. Injustice can only be claimed if they were unjustly condemned, or if the mercy granted a few was due to anything other than God's own choice, unaffected and unswayed by any outside consideration.

The flaw in Arminian thought is their insistence on man having a free will unaffected by the Fall of man into sin, something which is logically impossible. When someone says, "God voted for me, Satan voted against me, and I get to cast the deciding vote", they are stating a completely unscriptural idea, for several reasons. First, they elevate Satan to be equal with God, which, while it probably pleases Satan no end, is clearly not possible. Second, they elevate their own will to an equal status with God, which is just as unscriptural as elevating Satan's will to that level. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that man is on an equal footing with God, in his will, or in any other facet of life. It is God who chooses, it is God who saves, it is God who decides. Man does not choose God, God chooses him, enables him to believe, supplies the faith necessary to believe, and saves the man. Man's only part in the whole process is one of reception, of submission, of complete surrender. God does the work, man just receives it. Unless God does that work, man not only cannot receive, he will not receive.

It is all God's doing, unlike the Arminian postion which says man can decide which way to go, to accept or reject God's gift. The Arminian give man the final authority over his fate, which flies in the face of God's Sovereignty, and His makes a mockery of Christ's substitutionary work on the cross on man's behalf.

NIV Genesis 6:7
7. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them."

THIS God changed His mind......

NIV Exodus 32:7-14
7. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt.
8. They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, `These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
9. "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people.
10. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."
11. But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?
12. Why should the Egyptians say, `It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.
13. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: `I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'"
14. Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

THIS God changed His mind as well......

NIV 1 Chronicles 21:15
15. And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

THIS God changed His mind, also......

NIV Jonah 3:10
10. When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

It appears that THIS God IS capable of be 'manipulated'!!!

Is Peter the 'rock'?

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

NIV Matthew 8:14
14. When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

(Simon was already known as 'Peter' BEFORE these verses came along.....)

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
4. and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

NIV Luke 6:48
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

NIV Romans 9:33
33. As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

NIV Numbers 20:8
8. "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
4. He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
15. Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
2. "There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
32. For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
47. "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

NIV Psalms 18:2
2. The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

NIV Psalms 18:31
31. For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

NIV Psalms 18:46
46. The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

NIV Psalms 19:14
14. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

NIV Psalms 28:1

1. To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

NIV Psalms 42:9
9. I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

NIV Psalms 62:2
2. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

NIV Psalms 62:6
6. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

NIV Psalms 62:7
7. My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

NIV Psalms 71:3
3. Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

NIV Psalms 78:35
35. They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

NIV Psalms 89:26
26. He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

NIV Psalms 95:1
1. Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

NIV Psalms 144:1
1. Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

NIV Isaiah 17:10
10. You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

NIV Isaiah 26:4
4. Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

NIV Isaiah 30:29
29. And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

NIV Isaiah 44:8
8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
12. O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............

And now you know the Biblical position!

Thus, 'total depravity' is redefined to mean 'total inability' It seems to me that it is evident from scripture that all men are conceived and born sinners, and rightly under God's Wrath. They cannot do anything but sin, and are incapable of doing anything truly good. They are sinners both by choice and by nature, enslaved to the sin they are born in. Unless God, by His Holy Spirit, regenerates their hearts, they will not turn to God, nor are they even able to do so. They will not seek God, or entertain any notion of seeking Him, their natures being so corrupted that it would never occur to them to seek Him, and they would reject any such idea should it be presented to them.

Well, that is the Calvinist position, so even though you do not call yourself a Calvinist, you are stating that it is the correct one.

Nowhere in Scripture does it state that a man is saved by Regeneration, it states rather that he is regenerated by faith.

Now, it is true that man is spiritually dead, which is separation from God, but that does not mean that man cannot be reached by God.

God is able to communicate with unbelievers who respond to His commands (Gen.20) with fear without regenerating them.

Thus, total inablility is not Biblical, it is an excuse for Unconditional election, which makes the man unable to respond since that man is not elected.

Therefore, since man will not seek God, God MUST make the first move.

True, and God has done that with nature and conscience (Psa.19,Rom.1-2)

Man's will is corrupted as well as his nature. Man cannot have the will necessary to choose God, because it, along with everything else is corrupted, twisted, and bent. God, by His Holy Spirit, unbends, straightens, and cleanses his will (Efficacious Grace), not to FORCE the man to choose God, but to make him ABLE to choose God. When God does that, the man will choose God.

Well, that is the Calvinist position ('smoothed' out to make 'irresistable' grace a bit more acceptable.

The point is, that man cannot resist what the Holy Spirit is doing to him, thus by whatever terms you want to use, the real question remains, why not everyman?

The Arminian position seems to teach that this Grace is given to all men, as though God owed it to them.

No, no classical Arminian ever stated that.

Grace is mercy in action, and thus, mercy is just that, undeserved.

However, if one man is going to be shown mercy why not all?

Is not God a God of mercy?

Moreover, how (according to the Calvinists themselves -see Calvin BK 3) did man get in this situation?

God put him in it!

This goes back to unconditional election and God eternal plan to save some and to damn others for no other reason then it would show His glory.

How creating billions of rational creatures and saving a small portion of them, while damning the rest, not giving them any chance to believe, would be glorious to God is unfathonable.

We would call someone like that a madman, not God.

Also God owes Grace to no one. That He bestows it on even one person is entirely due to His Mercy, for all are rightly condemned to die for their sins. The Arminain may protest and ask how it is that God can save some and not others. The real question is, why should he save any? That He does is God's Grace, God's Mercy, and God's decision.

Well, that would be fine except, according to Calvinism, it is God who put man in that position in the first place, so it is a bit unfair to damn them for what they could not help.

Moreover, the point is a mute one since Christ did undo the work of the 1st Adam and has made all men savable (Rom.5:18) if they will believe.

Moreover, God does call upon all men to repent (Acts.17:30)

It is evident that God has not, in fact, saved all, for salvation was only given to a few in the OT, and it is in the NT that more have been saved.

How is the OT salvation any different.

Israel spread its message throughout the world, which was one of her purposes.

God was not without witness in the Old testament as the conversion of Ninevah proves.

It is impertinent in the extreme to accuse God of injustice for doing as He Wills with what is, after all, His own Creation.

It would be if God did not show in Scripture that He wants all men to be saved (see Calvin and Spurgeon, Boettner etc) but not really!

All men are rightly judged for their sins, so injustice cannot flow from that, in that all deserve to die. If He chooses to rescue some from that fate, how is that unjust, seeing that His Justice dmenads even their deaths? If He chooses to override His Justice by His Mercy shown to a few, it only confirms His Justice, and His Sovereignty over His Creation. Those who have been granted mercy cannot glory in it, for it was not by their power that they were shown mercy. Those who have not been shown mercy cannot claim unfair treatment, for they know they are rightly condemned. Injustice can only be claimed if they were unjustly condemned, or if the mercy granted a few was due to anything other than God's own choice, unaffected and unswayed by any outside consideration. The flaw in Arminian thought is their insistence on man having a free will unaffected by the Fall of man into sin, something which is logically impossible.

Find where Arminius or Wesley ever said that man's will was not effected by the Fall.

Did Adam run from God?

Did God seek him?

Did Adam make a decision with that same corrupted will?

The corruption in the will is not seeking God, but God can seek man and find him and then give that same will the chance to accept or reject him.

When someone says, "God voted for me, Satan voted against me, and I get to cast the deciding vote", they are stating a completely unscriptural idea, for several reasons. First, they elevate Satan to be equal with God, which, while it probably pleases Satan no end, is clearly not possible. Second, they elevate their own will to an equal status with God, which is just as unscriptural as elevating Satan's will to that level. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that man is on an equal footing with God, in his will, or in any other facet of life. It is God who chooses, it is God who saves, it is God who decides. Man does not choose God, God chooses him, enables him to believe, supplies the faith necessary to believe, and saves the man. Man's only part in the whole process is one of reception, of submission, of complete surrender. God does the work, man just receives it. Unless God does that work, man not only cannot receive, he will not receive.

What does the 'vote' have to do with it?

God is seeking all men as is Satan and will blind those who reject the Gospel (2Cor.4:4) (odd to blind someone who cannot believe in the first place)

Also, why have Satan around if God is just going to damn everyone He has already decided to in the first place.

Satan is thus a mere pawn as are rational creatures in the hands of this Calvinistic God who has not allowed any choices to go against His sovereign directive will.

In fact, sin did not orginate with Satan but with God since God decreed that Satan would sin (for God's glory).

So sin can be traced back to God, not His rational creatures, a view that makes God both Good and Bad at the same time, like Ying and Yang or the 'Force' of star wars.

That God allowed sin in His universe does not make Him responsible for it, since the responsiblty falls on those who choose to reject God and God honored their decisions by making those decisions part of history.

It doesn't reject God's sovereignity if God in His Sovereignity decreed that it would be that way.

It is only offensive to the Calvinistic notion of God's sovereignity, not the Biblical one.

With God's subsitutionary work, as you yourself said, all men are savable.

If all men could not be saved, then it is indeed a mockery to say that all men are savable.

Christ died for all men, not just a select few, and if when one goes to hell, they go despite God's will for their lives, not because of it.

One last point, Palmer in his work on the five points of Calvinism does describe Total Depravity as total inability (P.14)

Thus, the real difference in our positions is that you see no problem with a God who despite what He says in scripture, could create for the sole purpose of destroying most of it.

This is espically true of man, who was not created to go to the lake of fire, which was created for Satan and his angels not man (Matt.25)

I think you can call yourself a Calvinist, since you adhere to unconditional election, although you do not seem to accept the Limited Atonement aspect of it.

I think that maybe the point of disagreement here has more to do with man's ability to choose pre-salvation vs. man's ability to choose post-salvation. There is a world of difference. As Christians we can choose to resist or embrace God's Grace in our lives, to move forward in our walk or to stand still, based on our choices. We have that ability as Christians. That is why Paul spent time exhorting and encouraging believers to grow, to expand, to seek God, to "run the race", etc. Unregenerate man has no such ability, for he is not only not in fellowship with God, he doesn't WANT to be. He is totally unable to do anything that is acceptable to God, totally unable to seek God, in fact he actively avoids God, just as Adam did in the Garden after he sinned. Unregenerate man cannot choose God of his own volition, on his own impetus, because he knows he is sinful and displeasing to God in his subconscious. He may not consciously know why he avoids God, all he knows is that he wants nothing to do with God. Such a man will not get up one morning and say to himself, "This is the day I seek God. This is the day I will find Him and yield myself to Him. This is the day I want to get saved." Not gonna happen!

Well, that is the position that L.S.Chafer took and he was rebuked for it by the more strict Calvinists.

The fact is if you are 'yielding' in your Christian walk, you are making a decision for or against God and thus cooperating with His grace (the hated concept in Calvinism)

Now, if a regenerate man can make that decision why cannot God in His omnipotence give the unregenerate man the ablility to make a decision for the Gospel.

God appeals to the unregenerate man with nature and holds him accountable for rejecting Him, even though man did know God (Rom.1:28)

God can communicate with unregenerate man and get that man to obey him, even though he is still unregenerate (Gen.20)

The only reason that man is considered unable to respond to the Gospel is because the Calvinists say that he is not elected to do so.

Then God created the situation in which it is impossible for man to accept what God has already Decreed is impossible.

God sets up man for failure in this system due to unconditional election and then states that man is responsible for that failure!

Total Inability arise from the fact that man is already a sinner, not just a potential sinner. He is born that way!

And, how according to Calvin, did man get that way?

God decreed it that way.

Moreover, Christ dealt with Adams sin and His grace is greater then Adams sin (Rom.5)

He has sinned from his earliest opportunity. It is his nature to sin. He can do nothing but sin. Proverbs says that even the plowing of the wicked is sin. "There is none righteous, no not one. None seek after God." "All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God." It isn't just that man doesn't WANT to seek God, he CANNOT!

So, God seeks him (Psa.19, Rom.1-2,)

He is born in a state of already resisting God's Grace.

And why is man born that way?

It is due to God's unconditional election so that the damned would remain damned.

Thus, no man is damned because he is a sinnner, he is a sinner because he is damned!(not elected)

It's not a decision he makes, it's his natural reaction.

Man is held accountable for rejecting God at the point of nature because he has the knowledge of God but rejects it.

Not all men do so however (Acts.10-11)

That is why only those men are turned over to their own delusions and become totally corrupt.

It is God's Grace that apprehends a man, and causes him to turn and receive God's gift of salvation. It is never man deciding that he will stop resisting Grace, and receive God's gift. God must first enable the man to receive, or he will not, and therefore cannot.

And the reason man cannot is because God will not!

Thus, the sum of Calvinism is putting man is hopeless situation, saving some, damning the rest and then blaming those who are not chosen for being damned in the first place!

Moreover, all your protestations regarding Adams sin are made void by the fact the second Adam undid the condemnation of the first Adam, so that all men are now savable because of the greater grace of the Second Adam.

Only man's rejection of that grace damns him (Jn.16:9).

The one result of Adams sin that has not been dealt with yet is death itself but it will be in the future (1Cor.15)

That brings me to another point. A small one, to be sure, but one that I think is important. A lot of people talk about "accepting Christ", "accepting" God's gift. I think it's more accurate that we receive Christ, we receive God's gift. Acceptance implies an agreement between equals, and an even exchange, a negotiated settlement. Receive implies total submissivenenss on the part of the receiver. The Giver gives, the receiver receives. So it is with God and us. We didn't negotiate with Him, we submitted to Him. We received His offer, as-is. It's a small point, I know, but something I believe the Lord showed me some time ago.

I agree, I believe we should believe on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Cor.15, Acts.16), it is by faith that one is saved, faith in the Atoning work of Christs blood (Rom.3:25).

One must realize that he is a sinner and needs a saviour and that only the Lord Jesus Christ can save you.(Jn.14:6, Acts.4:12).

'Receive' is used once (Jn.1:12) but how one receives the free gift is by faith (Eph.2:8, Rom.5:2)

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