Posted on 01/16/2024 7:54:02 AM PST by Cronos
The "Jesus Only" movement, also known as Oneness Pentecostalism or oneness theology, teaches that there is only one God, but denies the tri-unity of God. In other words, oneness theology does not recognize the distinct persons of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It has various forms / modes / manifestations—some see Jesus Christ as the one God, who sometimes manifests Himself as the Father or the Holy Spirit. The core doctrine of Oneness Pentecostal / Jesus Only is that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Spirit. There is one God who reveals Himself in different "modes."
This teaching of the Jesus Only / Oneness Pentecostals has been around for centuries, in one form or another, as modalism. Modalism teaches that God operated in different forms or modes at different times—sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit. But passages like Matthew 3:16-17, where two or all three Persons of the Godhead are present, contradict the modalistic view. Modalism was condemned as heretical as early as the second century A.D. The early church strongly contended against the view that God is strictly a singular person who acted in different forms at different times. They argued from Scripture that the tri-unity of God is evident in that more than one Person of the Godhead is often seen simultaneously, and they often interact with one another (examples: Genesis 1:26; 3:22;11:7; Psalm 2:7; 104:30; 110:1; Matthew 28:19; John 14:16). Oneness Pentecostalism / Jesus Only doctrine is unbiblical.
The concept of the tri-unity of God, on the other hand, is present throughout Scripture. It is not a concept that is easily grasped by the finite mind. And because man likes everything to make sense in his theology, movements such as the Jesus Only movement—not to mention the Jehovah’s Witnesses—regularly arise to try to explain the nature of God. Of course, this simply cannot be done without doing violence to the biblical text. Christians have come to accept that God’s nature is not subject to the limitations we might like to put on Him. We simply believe Him when He says, "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts"' (Isaiah 55:8-9). If we can’t understand His thoughts and ways, we accept that we cannot fully understand His nature, either.
“Oneness Pentecostals” are, as one might expect, people committed to a Pentecostal understanding of sign gifts, and people who are likewise committed to a non-trinitarian understanding of the trinity.
Oneness Pentecostals, not only likely believe it possible for a man to be without sin after his conversion, but they deny that God is one God who exists in three persons. This sub-group denies an essential of the faith. They affirm a damnable heresy, modalism, that was condemned by the church over fifteen hundred years ago. (Modalism, in short, teaches that there is one God who appears in three different roles, masks, or modes.)
I have in the past encouraged people caught up in this kind of error to consider the a-historical nature of their perspective. That is, I encourage them to understand better the nature of the church. If the church spoke fifteen hundred years ago, in and through an ecumenical council, then wouldn’t it be prudent to submit to the wisdom of the church? What else is open to debate, if the church can never settle an issue?
It wasn’t some pope’s idea.
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 2:38 the author is not presenting a liturgical formula. He is concerned with distinguishing Christ’s baptism from John the Baptist’s.
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
Oneness Pentecostals argue that the New Testament talks about people being baptized “in the name of Jesus,” but there are only four such passages (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5).
These passages do not use the same designation in each place (some say “Lord Jesus,” other say “Jesus Christ”), indicating that they were not technical formulas used in the baptism but simply descriptions by Luke. These four descriptions are not to be considered as a substitute for or contradiction of the divine command of the Lord Jesus Christ to: “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).
Jesus said that He and the Father were one, and that the Father would send the Spirit of Truth to dwell within us. If you can’t understand that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons of the one true God, Elohim, then stop trying to understand and just believe.
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able” (Didache 7:1)
“Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit’ [Matt. 28:18-19]” (The Diatesseron 55
“The Lord himself told his disciples that they should baptize all peoples in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . . for indeed, legitimate baptism is had only in the name of the Trinity” (Commentary on Romans 5:8)
“He [Jesus] commanded them to baptize the Gentiles in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How then do some say that though a Gentile be baptized . . . never mind how or of whom, so long as it be done in the name of Jesus Christ, the remission of sins can follow—when Christ himself commands the nations to be baptized in the full and united Trinity?” (Letters 73:1)
“We believe . . . each of these to be and to exist: the Father, truly Father, and the Son, truly Son, and the Holy Ghost, truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth his disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’” (Letter to the People of His Diocese 3)
There are well over 5 million people who belong to various Oneness Pentecostal groups and deny the Trinity.
The Oneness Pentecostal movement first emerged in North America around 1914 as the result of a schism following the doctrinal disputes within the nascent Finished Work Pentecostal movement (which itself had broken from Holiness Pentecostalism)
No one understands the full nature of God. But if one is a Christian one must consider numerous passages where Jesus speaks about the Father as a distinct entity.
Matthew 11:25 “At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
Matthew 20:23 “Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.””
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
John 5:19 “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”
John 8:28 “So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.”
John 8:54 “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.”
true - and the sheer fact that the Apostles believed that there was One God and that the Father was God and Jesus was God and the Holy Spirit was God and seen to be at the same time, so they were distinct “persons” tells us a lot.
The Apostasy that wasn’t!
Sounds like yet another Gnostic Heresy to me. Jesus said “many are called but few are chosen.” Everyone will find out whether they have chosen the wide road or the narrow gate.
As a matter of mathematics, the Trinity is essential to everything. George Spencer-Brown “proved” this in his book on Laws of Form. Here are some highlights.
We take as given the idea of distinction and the idea of indication, and that we cannot make an indication without drawing a distinction. We take, therefore, the form of distinction for the form.
There can be no distinction without motive, and there can be no motive unless contents are seen to differ in value.
An observer, since he distinguishes the space he occupies, is also a mark.
In the experiments above, imagine the circles to be forms and their circumferences to
be the distinctions shaping the spaces of these forms.
In this conception a distinction drawn in any space is a mark distinguishing the space.
Equally and conversely, any mark in a space draws a distinction.
We see now that the first distinction, the mark, and the observer are not only interchangeable, but, in the form, identical.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3890945805
https://archive.org/details/g.-spencer-brown-laws-of-form/mode/2up
There is a scientific theory of everything in which the Universe begins, at time 0, as three concentric spheres. It is summarized here: https://heim-theory.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Illobrand_von_Ludwiger-The_New_Worldview_of_the_Physicist_Burkhard_Heim.pdf
“...whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish...”
So, are they believers?
believers in what?
They believe in something, yes, but they do not believe what’s in the Nicene Creed.
This is an interesting point of what is a Christian? Someone who “follows Christ” - but says he was just a holy man? Someone who says that He was the first created creature? Someone who says that He was adopted into Godhood?
To me all of this is solved by simply asking if they believe in what is in the Nicene Creed.
your simple analogy does not hold water.
However, the main difference between Oneness and traditional view of the nature of God is that the Oneness folks essentially believe it’s different OFFICES of God.
Example, consider a man that is a father. This man is also the son of another father, and could be the mayor of the town. That’s the way they think.
However, this is not biblical. A stumbling block to those folks is when the word Trinitarian or Trinity is used. It’s not in the bible. But the theology of the Godhead firmly establishes the core beliefs. So, it’s helpful to argue from the scriptures, rather than the terms.
Oneness Pentecostalism has other errors, such as their “evidence” claim for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
By “believe”, I mean belief that Jesus is the Son of God who lived in human form, and by His death redeemed us if we believe in Him.
What throws some non-Catholic Christians off is the Nicene Creed use of “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church”. In this usage catholic is defined as “including a wide variety of things; all-embracing”. They may believe that they are swearing allegiance to a pope and a hierarchy which appear considerably less than Christian these days.
A giant among the early fathers was Irenaeus, who originally was from the Smyrna church in Asia Minor, before he became pastor at Lyons, France. Where he as a youngster knew Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of the apostle John.
Irenaeus wrote, “what was invisible about the Son is the Father; and what was visible about the Father is the Son.” The apostle John said as much in John 1:18, and also the apostle Paul in Col. 1:15 (the Son is “the image of the invisible God”).
Oneness Pentecostals simply believe that the Father is not an old grey bearded man, as pictured so often in middle ages art, but is Spirit, Christ said in John 4:24, “God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth.” God the Father an invisible and omnipresent Spirit that fills the universe.
While the Son has flesh and bones, Christ said, “a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have,” Luke 24:39.
Oneness Pentecostals thus believe in the Father and the Son, they do not deny the Father as some here on this thread allege. They do not believe in “Jesus Only” as some on this thread also allege. They believe the Father is as the New Testament describes him, eternal and omnipresent Spirit, visibly revealed in the Son.
And no where in scripture is anyone recorded as being baptized using the formula, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
So if that is going to be your argument, it only happens four times vs it never happens at all logically what is spelled out as happening four times trumps what never happens at all.
“A giant among the early fathers was Irenaeus, who originally was from the Smyrna church in Asia Minor, before he became pastor at Lyons, France. Where he as a youngster knew Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of the apostle John.”
He was a Catholic Bishop, not a pastor
He also was a great defend of the Real Presence of the Eucharist in “Against Heresies”
In which way did you mean the word, “Catholic?” International or universal, as Protestants and Evangelicals see it? Or the way the Papacy sees it?
The link to his diocese:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Lyon
Pope Anicetus sent Ponthius to France to evangelize and he established the Church in Lyon and was its first Bishop.
He was succeeded by Irenaeus
Then after him came:
Zechariah
Helios
Faustinus
Verus
Julius
Ptolémaeus
Vocius
Maximus
(Maximus was bishop when Contsantine Legalized the Church)
Vocius
Tetradius
Verissimus
Justus
.....
Current Bishop(now ArchBishop) is
Olivier de Germay
So as you can see I am referring the Church established by Jesus Christ, the CAtholic Church now headed by Francis.
well, the question then is of the rest of the creed - do they hold on to this or not?
Some, like Seventh Day Adventists who say Jesus is the archangel Michael - like the Jehovah’s witnesses, don’t pass this criteria to be defined as Christian.
The Oneness Pentecostals very clearly believe that the Father and the Son are the same person.
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