There are 77 replies now as I am first reading this thread.
Have the Mormons chimed in yet?
Posted on 05/24/2021 7:16:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
You talk as if God is not omniscient.
God gave Man the will to not follow Him.
God wanted Man to Glorify Him and make Him happy. God is without sin and wants Man to have holy hearts. Forcing your loved one to love you is a completely different reality than encouraging and having them naturally choose you in a healthy way on their own volition.
God wants all of Man to willingly choose Him, period.
Correct, and the problem here is that if Jesus is truly God (He is) His self sacrifice would have the value “merit” of God’s own self sacrifice.
Ergo it can’t possibly be that God’s mercy is limited by lack of merit in Jesus’s sacrifice for all sins.
So the question is how someone can be damned, but Jesus says repeatedly that those who do not accept Him condemn themselves. JN 3:18
Did God not know at any point who would follow him and who would not?
God is powerful enough to choose to not know or to selectively know.
His emotion over His consternation over the depths of how far Man will go to sin shows this can easily be the case.
As a parent, we can be most happy with our children when we see they willingly do the right thing without us being there to force the right thing.
Maybe God has an aspect of this in Him.
Other than saying He would remember our sins no longer, where is this attribute of God presented in the Bible?
In fact, God knows what we will do before we do it. Just look at Psalm 139.
the fallacy is that he is trying to equate unbelief as a sin. No where have I every read that unbelief is a sin in and of itself.
There all all sorts of places, but I already gave one:
“And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.”
“…for I am sorry that I have made them.”
How could He regret anything He knew about long before he either let or made happen? In essence, you are stating He created Man knowing He did it wrong, while knowing He knew each thing that Man would do to hurt Him.
Doesn’t it bother you that God says “I am sorry that I have made them?” After all, He only did it to Himself, right? He could have made Man “right” the first time. Perhaps He enjoys knowing He hurt Himself through Man?
Help me understand the screwed up psychology you ascribe to God.
WRONG! The atonement is provided for all, it extends to all, but is only efficacious for those who believe.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5:14-15)
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:6)
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)
"Option 1 is what many Christians believe – that Jesus took upon Himself, at the cross, all the sins of everyone who ever lived or will live. But Owen asks a good question: if that’s the case, then why isn’t everyone saved?"
The answer is obvious. Unbelief, which does nothing to impugn the sufficiency of the provision or the provider. That ought to be obvious but the Limited Atonement Advocate (LAA) has blinders on.
"If unbelief is a sin (and we have seen that it is), then it was either one of the sins that Christ died for, or it was not. So, either unbelieving people still have something for which to answer to God or they don’t. If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death? This logical conclusion is the deathblow for anyone claiming that Christ died for all the sins of everyone, but that unbelief keeps a person from eternal life. Owen says if unbelief is a sin, and if Christ died for ALL the sins of everyone born of human parents, then that sin must be included in the mix and labeled as one for which Christ died. Unbelief, as a sin, could not keep anyone from spending eternal life with God more than any other sin for which Jesus paid."
The reasoning of the LAA is absurd and a deathblow for anyone claiming this is logical. Unbelief is a sin atoned for, but as with all others, it is forgiven upon effectually believing. The conclusion of the LAA seems constrained by the absurd premise that if God provide something that is not received then it must mean the Giver has failed.
Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. (Luke 14:16-18)
Was the feast provided for all? Yes.
Why was it not efficacious for some? Because they would not come.
Was there any fault by the host that only some received the benefit of his grace? Not at all.
"“As addressed to those who agree with him as to the nature of the atonement, while differing with him as to the extent of its reference, this seems unanswerable.” I agree."
ABSURD.
Amen
Because God will not force Himself on anyone. Real love cannot exist without free will. God desires a real relationship with us not mindless robots. However if we do not accept His provision it is our failing not His
RE: Calvin had no divine authority, and thus Calvinism is a distracting circular argument which saves no one.
I will try to explain Calvinism as a Calvinist explains it to me because it will not be a good thing to misrepresent their arguments.
Firstly, when those who adhere to it use the term Calvinism, we need to understand that that term, that language, is language I’ve never been particularly comfortable with.
The reason for that is that I don’t think John Calvin would like us calling the doctrines of grace and the doctrine of salvation after him. And so, while many people use that terminology, I’ve always hesitated to use it because, in fact, the doctrines that we’re speaking of when we speak of Calvinism or when we speak of Reformed theology or Reformed soteriology, which is the doctrine of salvation, we are speaking of course of biblical doctrines which these people espouse. Now, of course not everyone believes that those doctrines are biblical, but they do, and they believe they are thoroughly biblical.
So, they insist that their divine authority is from Scripture contrary to what you are telling us.
As I understand it, When people speak of Calvinism, they’re typically speaking of the five points of Calvinism, as they’re oftentimes referred to. Those five points of Calvinism as they’re typically defined are as follows: 1. total depravity, 2. unconditional election, 3. limited atonement or definite atonement, 4. irresistible grace, and 5. perseverance of the saints.
Those who agree with Calvin insist that these doctrines flow from Scripture.
They also insist that if we reject any one of those doctrines, the entire biblical system and doctrine of salvation really begins to crumble apart. And so they insist that it is absolutely vital that we understand that each of those doctrines flows from Scripture and they all fit together appropriately and necessarily, and they flow from one another as well.
Here’s how I understand their argument FROM SCRIPTURE ( which they insist is their divine authority ):
We understand that the Bible teaches plainly that we are totally depraved, that we are sinful, that in our natural state as sinners before God that we are against God, we are at enmity with God, we are in opposition to God, that we don’t deserve grace. We don’t deserve heaven. We don’t deserve salvation.
We also understand from Scripture, as Paul plainly teaches in Romans and Ephesians, as Jesus plainly teaches throughout the Gospels, that salvation is by God’s unconditional choice of those who are His, and that He chose us in Christ from before the foundation of the earth.
They also believe that the Bible also plainly teaches that the redemption that is ours in Christ is a redemption that actually accomplishes something. Some people believe that God sent Jesus, the Son, our Savior, simply to provide a way of salvation or to make salvation possible, but that’s not what Jesus came to do. Jesus came to actually accomplish something, not just to make something possible. But He came to accomplish salvation. So Jesus’ life and death on the cross, His resurrection from the dead, His life and ministry, actually accomplished redemption. And so, when Christ died on the cross, God poured out His wrath upon Christ and Christ bore the wrath of God for all those who belong to God, for all those whom the Father chose in Christ from before the foundation of the earth. And so, Jesus took the wrath of God for us.
This is the language of Scripture, that God poured out His wrath on Christ for those who belong to Christ. And so, for all those who are not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth, for all those whom God did not choose, for all those whom God in His sovereign power decided to pass over, God’s wrath is still upon them. They are still in their sins and they are awaiting the wrath of God to come upon them in God’s eternal punishment in hell.
Now, that’s not easy for us to hear. That’s not easy for us to understand fully. And there is a great deal of mystery surrounding that. But what we do know is that God has done this according to His perfect and sovereign will. We know that God has done this according to His good pleasure. And while we don’t understand why some of us have been chosen, why some of us have been given the grace of God in Jesus Christ and the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, while we don’t understand that, we know it’s according to God’s good pleasure. And we don’t understand why God has chosen not to save others.
But here’s really the question that we need to ask: Why does God save any of us? Why does God choose any of us? Why did God show any of us grace when we don’t deserve it at all?
So, those who agree with Calvin will say that When God chooses, God saves, God accomplishes, God redeems, and God also regenerates by His grace. And God also preserves us by His grace, by the power of the Spirit to the end, because God, who began a good work in us, is faithful to complete it. And they insist that all of these are scriptural, and that is their divine authority.
This quote, in particular, struck me:
“This is the language of Scripture, that God poured out His wrath on Christ for those who belong to Christ.”
I already had issues with the references they use to defend predestination, but that bit about how God punished Christ is really “out there.” There's just so much that does not have Scripture there to support.
So what are the Parables of the Wedding Feast, the Parable of the Ten Virgins, the Parable of the Talents all about? For that matter, if everyone is saved why did Jesus tell, and explain in detail, the Parable of the Sower? What about “Many are called, but few are chosen?” How come the Way is narrow and the Road to Perdition is broad?
What about this at the end of the Book?
12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and †My reward is with Me, †to give to every one according to his work. 13†“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the fBeginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14†Blessed are those who gdo His commandments, that they may have the right †to the tree of life, †and may enter through the gates into the city. 15hBut †outside are †dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16†“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. †I am the Root and the Offspring of David, †the Bright and Morning Star.” 17And the Spirit and †the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” †And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Nelson, Thomas. Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (pp. 1201-1202). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
Yes, in effect, if not everyone is saved, then Christ’s death was only for some, the Elect.
The problem I’ve seen, however, is that many of the Calvinists and Reformed folks way overdo that point, which is a long way from the understanding of the average lost unbeliever, whom we’re supposed to be proclaiming the Good News to.
I’ve seen Reformed folk who want to make the Good News, “You were either chosen by God before the world began, and have no choice in the matter yourself, or you’re damned to Hell for eternity.”
That is really advanced theology, and very tough meat if you’re unbeliever without even spiritual baby teeth yet, and is simply NOT how the Bible instructs us to approach unbelievers.
All through the New Testament, we see Jesus and the Apostles teaching, pleading with people, demonstrating and talking about God’s love, doing miracles, i.e., always reaching out to people as if they do have a choice.
And, we don’t entirely understand by a long shot what seems to be the contradiction between our personally accepting or rejecting Christ, and God having chosen an Elect before the world began. This is what Paul ponders in Romans, when he talks about how God has mercy on some, but hardens the hearts of others, and he says that we are simply not in a position to question God.
So, in terms of evangelism, and in terms of the Great Commission, Christians need to tread carefully with both talking about and thinking about the truth of election. Because if not, then it can also be easy to think that we know who’s the Elect and who isn’t, and to think, “Oh, that person didn’t respond when we talked to him about Christ. He’ll never accept Christ and be saved and so he must be one of the damned.”
Jesus Himself said near the time of His crucifixion that He had much more to say to His disciples, but they couldn’t bear it all then, and that was even after several years of being with Him. We have to take care always to speak the truth in love, just as we wouldn’t burden children with all the truths of life all at once and when they’re very young, and just as Jesus didn’t sit down once He’d called His disciples and burden them with all theology all at once, either.
There are 77 replies now as I am first reading this thread.
Have the Mormons chimed in yet?
It is NOT obvious to our Catholic friends.
John 6:29 is not good enough for them.
I can’t believe I’m asking this: What about those who die never hearing the gospel? They don’t believe.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
