Posted on 09/12/2019 7:09:16 AM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
My thoughts have been drawn to this topic any number of times in the past few days. As we near the anniversary of the tragic events of 911, I see plaintive postings of that day saying, “Never forget” (or words to that effect). The Orthodox faith teaches us that the remembrance of the departed should be eternal (“Memory Eternal,” is our prayer). I suspect that what is being urged, however, is not the remembrance of those who have died, but remembrance of the great evil that was done. There have been over 250,000 civilian deaths in America’s military actions since that day, deaths for which no memory is suggested, and for some, not yet enough. There have been very few rules governing modern warfare other than the “optics” of any given response. There can be a darkness in the remembrance of past wrongs. In many corners of the world, the wrongs that seem fresh occurred in long-passed centuries. The cycle of violence becomes unending, and is born anew within the heart of every generation. These are among the most intractable problems within the modern world. Christ came into a generation that had known many centuries of wrongs and a present-tense suffering of military and political occupation. It is in that precise context that He speaks regarding enemies. Those words were, no doubt, hard. They remain difficult for us. I reprint this article as we all wrestle with the injuries done to us and to those we love. May God give us grace!
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.ancientfaith.com ...
“deaths for which no memory is suggested”
Nonsense.
There’s a whole day dedicated to it called Memorial day, for one.
Stopped reading, despite an interesting title and topic.
Forgiveness can be extended to everyone as forgoing of revenge.
But many think forgiving is also forgetting and foregoing justice. The many effect much injustice on others.
This is complicated stuff. Father’s words are simplistic.
This country is ‘torn apart’. One side is responsible. Reminds me of the Newsmax article how wars start when someone fights back.
When Jesus talked about forgiveness, He was talking to personal forgiveness of others who have hurt you. Just as when He talked about charity, it was specific to each individual and how God led them to give.
The strictures on forgiveness and charity had nothing to do with governments and nations in dealing with each other. Eye for an eye was for judges to judge correctly and fairly. The sword was given to the soldier (representative of government) to ensure the law so that man could live in peace and serve God peacefully. Those laws have nothing to do with people personally.
People conflate the two so they can force the government to take our money and give it to who they want, and to force government to judge unfairly and forgive who they want.
My opinion, for what it is worth, is that you can only forgive those who have wronged you. Not somebody else.
I forgive atheists (enemies of God) for the distruction they are eventually going to bring upon themselves.
It’s a total waste, a crying shame, but I forgive them.
bump
I am Jewish, so I don’t subscribe to the theory that anyone can forgive anyone else for any sin imaginable.
There are 2 types of sins: sins against God and sins against other people. Sometimes the same act is both (i.e. murder, theft, adultery and many others).
God can forgive the sins against His law if He so desires (and, one would presume, only if the perpetrator is genuinely sorry based on words, deeds and their heart, which only God can know), but only people can forgive sins against themselves. That is why murder is literally unforgivable. Oh, God can forgive someone for the sin of committing a murder, but only the murder victim can (in theory - but certainly not in practice, not unless he forgives the murderer as he is dying) forgive the act against himself. His family and friends can forgive the murderer for the effect of the murder on themselves, but not for the pain & suffering, nor the loss of years of life, that the murder victim himself suffers.
Additionally, the only way that someone who sins against another can be forgiven is to communicate to the victim that they are sorry and to ask forgiveness - and if the perp doesn’t appear to be sincere, the victim would be right to refuse. Mouthing words, without deeds that move in the direction of those words, is utterly insincere and thus meaningless.
This forgiving of a perp by Person #1 for an act against Person #2 is absurd on its face, and it also tends to lead to more bad acts in the future (either by the same perp or by others familiar with the situation). Why? Because then a person can commit bad acts, ask for forgiveness for it from some sap and, upon getting it, have their (rather feeble) conscience satisfied and be reinforced in that kind of action. This is where too much forgiveness can actually lead to more sinful and destructive acts, surely not the purpose for which God created forgiveness in the first place.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I do not think we can forgive others for wrongs done to someone else. Otherwise, there would be no justice and God hates injustice.
When justice is not done, God visits judgment on that nation, as happened in Israel in the past.
And I still am not sure about forgiving someone who has not asked. God forgives when we ask, but He does not offer blanket forgiveness without repentance.
However, holding grudges can eat a person alive so at some point, we need to release the person into God’s hands for HIM to deal with and some people call that forgiveness. If it is, it is. Either way, we no longer hold the person responsible to pay the debt they owe us for the wrong done, which in many cases, probably most, is impossible.
So the perps who flew those planes into the WTC, well, they met their Maker. Those who master minded it, need to be held accountable and pay for their crime.
And in many cases, that merits the death penalty administered by the governing authorities whose job it is.
Thanks for your thoughts, as well.
You said, “However, holding grudges can eat a person alive so at some point, we need to release the person into God’s hands for HIM to deal with and some people call that forgiveness.”
The issue of whether a victim of some sin should (or should not) forgive the perpetrator does not touch upon whether you or I (or any other 3rd party) should, or even can, forgive that perpetrator...even as I agree that the endless holding of a grudge is very harmful to that person.
“He who is compassionate to the cruel will ultimately become cruel to the compassionate”
Are we then allowed to seek revenge on behalf of another if we can only forgive offenses against ourselves?
Say someone murders your daughter. You can forgive him for the harm that he has done to you, but other than God, no one can forgive him for her murder but your dead daughter. Again, so I see it.
Another thing that has always bothered me about all this “I forgive so-and-so for whatever horrible crime he committed” crap is that has he sincerely asked for forgiveness, has he repented? Even God doesn't forgive un-repented sin, at least not in the Bible as I read it.
“Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord. I will repay” has always been one of the more difficult of commands of God for me. He just takes so long about, and the temptation to help Him along a bit is hard to resist. Fortunately for me, I don't care to spend time in jail either.
95% I agree with you. God can forgive any sin, and any sin against another person is a sin against God, IMO.
But certainly the person who is harmed is the only person who can forgive for that harm. Also, you are right that it must be asked for by the perpetrator. Throwing it around to those that have not asked for it is useless and unwise.
Additionally, and I think we will agree here, forgiveness does not involve saying the “perp” was right, or “no harm done”, nor need it involve freedom from consequences. If someone steals from me, I want my money back, plus costs involved in getting it. Plus I don’t want him to do it against to someone else, so I would want the law to take its course.
Does that make he unmerciful? There are some who would think so, but them having a different opinion does not harm me in way, and I don’t care.
1 Samuel 24
1 After Saul had returned from pursuing the Philistines, he was told, “David is in the wilderness of En-gedi.”
2 So Saul took three thousand chosen men from all Israel and went to look for David and his men in the region of the Rocks of the Wild Goats.
3 Soon Saul came to the sheepfolds along the road, where there was a cave, and he went in to relieve himself. And David and his men were hiding in the recesses of the cave.
4 So David’s men said to him, “This is the day about which the LORD said to you, ‘Behold, I will deliver your enemy into your hands to do with him as you wish.’”
Then David crept up secretly and cut off a corner of Saul’s robe.
5 Afterward, David’s conscience was stricken because he had cut off the corner of Saul’s robe.
6 So he said to his men, “The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD’s anointed. I will never lift my hand against him, since he is the LORD’s anointed.”
7 With these words David restrained his men, and he did not let them rise up against Saul. Then Saul left the cave and went on his way.
8 After that, David got up, went out of the cave, and called out to Saul, “My lord the king!”
When Saul looked behind him, David bowed facedown in reverence 9and said to Saul, “Why do you listen to the words of men who say, ‘Look, David intends to harm you’?
10 Behold, this day you have seen with your own eyes that the LORD delivered you into my hand in the cave. I was told to kill you, but I spared you and said, ‘I will not lift my hand against my lord, since he is the LORD’s anointed.’
11 See, my father, look at the corner of your robe in my hand. For I cut it off, but I did not kill you. See and know that there is no evil or rebellion in my hands. I have not sinned against you, even though you are hunting me down to take my life.
12 May the LORD judge between you and me, and may the LORD take vengeance on you, but my hand will never be against you.
...
15 May the LORD be our judge and decide between you and me. May He take notice and plead my case and deliver me from your hand.”
With God, Justice & Mercy are equally balanced.
Psalm 145:8-9
Jonah 4:2
Isaiah 45:21
Deuteronomy 32:4
I think we can forgive others who sin against us, or at the very least plead to The Lord to not hold those sins they committed against us - against them on the Day of Judgement.
I look at my own life and wonder why I deserve any forgiveness and mercy. Answer is I really don’t. Nobody does to be honest.
Being a Christian, we are reminded that we are to always forgive our enemies and pray for them. Not just once, but 70 times 7 (basically that means always) Matthew 18:21-22.
If you think about how many times we all sin during a single day (thoughts, deeds, passive aggressive actions). We’re going to need A LOT of forgiveness from God at the end of the day. Approaching The Lord with a humble & contrite attitude goes a long way. Psalm 37:11; Isaiah 29:19
As one of my grandsons says, I just want to be God's agent.
:)
I'm not sure about that.
God forgives us but that's based on the justice that He dealt with in Jesus' death.
Nor does forgiveness preclude justice.
A person can forgive someone who wronged them, but sometimes the perp needs to go to jail anyways.
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