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To: Tell It Right
"Big picture answer: Have you read the entire Old Testament and New Testament?

Yes, many times over, in-depth and in a serious manner, as I'm sure you have. It is not a matter of not being knowledgeable of the contents of the Bible, but a difference of interpretation.

Jesus and Paul did indeed warn time and again the impossibility of being saved under the Jewish law. But since almost no Christian today believes that one could, that is not what is in dispute today. What is in dispute is whether our conduct (either bad or good) has any impact on our salvation. And, as you must know, both Jesus and St. Paul were very clear that it did.

18 posted on 09/11/2019 11:36:32 AM PDT by fidelis (Zonie and USAF Cold Warrior)
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To: fidelis

Both were clear that works follow and testify to salvation not the other way around. Christ said “it is finished” from the cross. Not it is begun for those that behave well enough to complete what I have started.


22 posted on 09/11/2019 11:44:06 AM PDT by Mom MD
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To: fidelis
This is a related link that I think you would enjoy reading, if you are interested in a discussion of why salvation comes by faith and apart from works - particularly the use of the word "alone."
28 posted on 09/11/2019 12:10:27 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: fidelis
Respectfully, I disagree that Jesus and Paul wrote that one's actions relate to one's salvation.

I do, however, believe they taught two reasons to live holy lives: one is to give glory to God, and the other is to make our witness more sound.

For instance, Paul wrote that he worked as a tent maker to make his witness and his teachings have more appeal. It's the same for his celibacy -- so he can be more focused on God's work. Neither of those were requirements, but they were supplements.

The reason I like the Old Testament transition to New Testament argument for sola fide is I tend to think twice before putting a lot into one-liner verse interpretations. To me, context is soooooo important.

So I'd argue that my conduct today doesn't relate to my salvation --- except how my own experiences might impact my own faith in the future. I say my conduct today has a large impact on the faith of the people around me, as I witness to them and they need to know that the Christians around them have a faith that's worth living. That includes both non-Christians and people who are already Christians. (Evidently I lean a bit Arminian instead of Calvinist.)

For what it's worth, though I'm Protestant I've never heard one sermon or read one teaching that says we shouldn't live our faith. So don't take my faith alone argument as a choice between faith or works. You could say us Protestants teach both faith and works like Catholics do, only we say it the works doesn't relate to salvation. We think it leads to pride in our works, which is very dangerous. Salvation is a grace thing -- why we call it "salvation" instead of "reward".

30 posted on 09/11/2019 12:16:21 PM PDT by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: fidelis
Your assertion "What is in dispute is whether our conduct (either bad or good) has any impact on our salvation. And, as you must know, both Jesus and St. Paul were very clear that it did."

You have not a clue the difference between being judged for eternal life and being judged for rewards at the Bema Seat of Christ, in Heaven.

You DO want to argue.

48 posted on 09/11/2019 1:35:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: fidelis
Remind the believers to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient and ready for every good work, to malign no one, and to be peaceable and gentle, showing full consideration to everyone. For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, led astray, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures—living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people. (Titus 3:1-8)

82 posted on 09/11/2019 6:31:25 PM PDT by boatbums (semper reformanda secundum verbum dei)
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To: fidelis
Jesus and Paul did indeed warn time and again the impossibility of being saved under the Jewish law. But since almost no Christian today believes that one could, that is not what is in dispute today. What is in dispute is whether our conduct (either bad or good) has any impact on our salvation. And, as you must know, both Jesus and St. Paul were very clear that it did.

Aside from rewards given under grace, the impact upon salvation that works resulting from faith led by the Spirit (cf. Rm. 8:14) have is the same that credentials have when you need to verify who and what you are. Meaning that an inert faith which does not effect the "obedience of faith" is dead, as Reformers taught*.

Which is contrary to the description of sola fide that Catholics are often fed (which is suspect you are a victim of) and some seem to cherish, even though it is evangelicals who attest to the most effectual faith.

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]

This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]

“We must therefore most certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 246, footnote 99]

if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, "the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341-342]

“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

“For it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present. [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:40]

if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead...And St. Peter says, Ye are to be as faithful, good shepherds or administrators of the manifold grace of God; so that each one may serve the other, and be helpful to him by means of what he has received, 1 Peter 4:10. See, here Peter says the grace and gifts of God are not one but manifold, and each is to tend to his own, develop the same and through them be of service to others.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:244]

In addition, upon hearing that he was being charged with rejection of the Old Testament moral law, Luther responded,

And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, ["A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way", http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]

More http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Reformation_faith_works.html

And rather than the easy believism of that Catholicism mostly examples (with a church about about half full of liberal members) yet associates with sola fide, but which too many in evangelicalism in the prophesied latter-day falling away hold to, of mere assent of faith in a promise of Christ abstract from who and what the Lord Jesus is, in Puritan Protestantism there was often a tendency to make the way to the cross too narrow, perhaps in reaction against the Antinomian controversy, as described in an account (http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html) of Puritans during the early American period:

“They had, like most preachers of the Gospel, a certain difficulty in determining what we might call the ‘conversion level’, the level of difficulty above which the preacher may be said to be erecting barriers to the Gospel and below which he may be said to be encouraging men to enter too easily into a mere delusion of salvation. Contemporary critics, however, agree that the New England pastors set the level high. Nathaniel Ward, who was step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion with, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’”

192 posted on 09/12/2019 12:22:10 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: fidelis; Tell It Right
What is in dispute is whether our conduct (either bad or good) has any impact on our salvation.

A rather interesting statement but not entirely correct. What is really in dispute is

Scriptures teach the latter:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Any good we do is a result of God working in our lives.

215 posted on 09/12/2019 1:22:56 PM PDT by HarleyD
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