The Spectator: "Is the Pope a Catholic? You have to wonder."

American Spectator via Rorate Caeli ^ | June 14, 2019 | Melanie McDonagh, for The Spectator

[sparklite2]

But not in the Ten Commandments.

[NorthMountain]

Where do you think the list of "ten" commandments comes from?

Oh, yes. That would be Exodus, Chapter 20.

When in doubt or uncertainty, refer back to the source. That would be Scripture, in this case.

I cited Scripture, in translations to which neither Catholic nor Protestant will object. You will find only the slightest difference between them … differences which in no way alter the meaning.

Your objection is void.

In my next post, I will cite the other possible source of the "ten" commandments.

[drpix]

Thanks for warning me... But I rechecked and my recently updated Norton Security shows that URL (http://babalublog.com/wpr/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ap_441854912515-814a603d4b395072f91dcffb8debc8ba49411f1e-s900-c85-560x226.jpg) as being “SAFE”

[NorthMountain]

I now present Deuteronomy 5 (in relevant part), first from the King James Version:

6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 Neither shalt thou steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour’s wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour’s house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

And from the Douay-Rheims Bible

6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
8 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ass, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.
15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.
16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 And thou shalt not steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife: nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Again, nothing added, nothing taken away.

If in doubt, refer to Scripture.

[drpix]

Almost forgot... Here's same/similar image from another URL: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NSgOQimcKyM/Vs2RiDASiQI/AAAAAAAAJqQ/Va7DeKiCR4U/s1600/francis-hammer-sickle-penda_med.jpeg

[sparklite2]

I think this puts it pretty well.

While it is understandable for “you shall not make any graven images” to be considered an aspect of “you shall not have other gods beside me,” based on the history of idolatry involving graven images throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it seems unwise to not include “you shall not make any graven images” in every listing of the Ten Commandments. The omission seems especially suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has long been accused of the idolatrous use of graven images.

[sparklite2]

Must be from the same cite.

Website blocked due to a Trojan

[piusv]

I can’t believe that anyone is still asking this question.

[NorthMountain]

< shrug >

If in doubt, refer to Scripture.

Two other points.

1) One who takes advice from his enemies is ill advised.

2) Accusation does not equal guilt. Just ask that horrible colluder-with-Russians, Donald J Trump. Oh, wait … those accusations came from enemies who wished to destroy him.

[piusv]

I suspect that they wish to avoid that question.

[NorthMountain]

I followed your link. The authors of that piece should acquaint themselves with Exodus 20:16 and Deuteronomy 5:20. Unless, of course, they consider that bad advice from an enemy ...

[Mrs. Don-o]

I do appreciate your effort here, and it's of antiquarian interest for sure, but it's not relevant for a fair independent comparison of what English-speaking churches (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) presently use and teach from.

For that we'd need actually named, available, English translations. Nobody today uses "Catholic/Lutheran as per Augustine, around 400 AD" vs "Protestant/Orthodox Churches and Communities as per Origen around 200 AD", although they are of specialized relevance for those who read Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

Our modern chapter divisions of the Bible were created by Stephen Langton (~ AD 1227); then 16th century printer Robert Estienne ("Stephanus") broke the chapters into a system of verse numbering. As for your 2nd century and 4th century versions --- which you reference without naming --- they just weren't set up that way.

Equally important, the Masoretic Text is considered an authority because it is the source for most present translations of the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament, and it didn't even exist then--- it was still centuries away.

There were no Masoretic texts in 200 AD or 400 AD, by the way, and nether were there Lutherans nor any other Protestants or Evangelicals.

We need extant versions found at multi-translation online places such as BibleHub or BibleGate, for instance, so we can compare for ourselves.

If I get time later on, I'll give some examples, showing how the Bible itself (with itself) has several different versions.

[sparklite2]

Thanks. But don’t do it for my sake.
I’m finished with the thread. ;*)

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thanks, NM, that makes for a much more relevant comparison.

For one thing, the KJV and D-R are roughly contemporaneous with each other and both in English.

For another thing, in 200 AD and 400 AD, in the versions quoted by sparklite, there was neither a "Lutheran" Church nor "Protestant" Churches, nor separate "Orthodox" nor "Catholic" either. At that point, the Church was just called "The Church" --- kata-holos and orthos-doxa--- "as-a-whole" and "right-praising" ---- and they were in communion with each other no matter what their dominant language or their particular translations and liturgies.

As the name of the Eastern Church, the term "Orthodox" was first recorded in English 1772. So calling these early first-millennium versions "Catholic/Lutheran" and "Orthodox/Protestant" is dubious at best and tendentious at worst..

[ealgeone]

If in doubt, refer to Scripture.

I do believe that's why He gave us the WRITTEN WORD! SOLA SCRIPTURA

[ealgeone]

If in doubt, refer to Scripture.

I do believe that's why He gave us the WRITTEN WORD! SOLA SCRIPTURA

[left that other site]

Awesome analogy! (((Love that movie!)))

[Mrs. Don-o]

OK, me too. Besides, I’ve got a Wendy’s burger out there that’s calling my name... :o)

[drpix]

The URL of the 1st is shown in post-43 and the URL of the 2nd is shown in post-45. They are clearly not the same site or image. (And no other poster has reported a problem.)

It must be your anti-virus program.

[sparklite2]

Now it works. Satan must have been defeated.
Hosea!