Posted on 06/13/2019 8:56:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Audio Transcript
Is it wise for a girlfriend and boyfriend to travel together? Stay in the same hotel? Should they? It’s a question we get regularly. And this time from a young woman. “Hello, Pastor John. My boyfriend and I plan to leave in three weeks for a trip we scheduled five months ago. My mother said she fears for us and for the temptations that could arise during the trip. I have assured her that while we have fallen into temptation in the past, we have desperately sought God and other Christian counsel to confront that pattern, and that we truly have laid it at the foot of the cross. After discussing this respectfully and in full, we concluded that all would be fine.
“Today my mother again confronted me and tells me that she believes we are dishonoring God, even though we will be staying in separate rooms the entire week. While I am frustrated, I also do not want to dishonor my parents’ wishes. I’m troubled in wondering if we are dishonoring God by traveling together before marriage.”
You know, I’ve thought about this question, and I’ve got ideas that I’m going to give in just a minute. But just by listening to you, Tony, read the question again, I get my back up about this guy. I mean, I’m being asked what to say to the young woman, and I’ll say it, but as you read it, I just want to say, “Guy, come on. Come on. Show your respect for this mom. Save this trip.” Okay — that’s enough of that. Let me get to my answer.
Let me give you three reasons from the Bible why I think the ethical instincts of your mother are right. I think it’s unwise for an unmarried couple to take a trip like this together — and not only unwise, but contrary to three biblical guidelines. First, let me suggest why I think this is even an issue between you and your mother.
Probably fifty years ago, like when I was 20 years old, taking a three-week trip as an unmarried couple would have been more unthinkable than it is today. Now, why is that? For two reasons at least.
One is that sex outside of marriage is considered normal today by the world. Avoiding situations where it might more easily happen is pointless in the wider culture. There is less cultural support for the conviction that such trips are unwise. That’s the first reason it’s even an issue — cultural change like that (which is not a healthy change).
The other reason is that, for fifty years, there has been a growing pressure culturally to treat men and women as though they were the same, which means that it should be just as legitimate to take a trip with a young woman as it is with a young man. Otherwise, it’s unjust.
Now, I regard both of these cultural transformations as tragic, and leading toward much sin and much sorrow, hurt, and damage in all kinds of ways and relations. It requires a strong confidence and courage for a young person to swim against such cultural tides. I hope that you will be that kind of strong, confident, courageous person, and I hope this boyfriend will be as well. So that’s the setting. That’s the setting that I think creates the present conflict.
Now, here are three biblical teachings that I think should cause you not to take that trip and save it for when you’re married.
First, God has created the human body and mind in such a way that those who are in love desire very strongly to touch each other and move toward sexual climax together. That’s normal; it’s inevitable that that desire would happen. God has made provision for the joy of that relationship and satisfaction in marriage and nowhere else.
You have already discovered — you said so — that extended time together, especially in private, makes those desires very strong. They’ve led you already into sexual activity you regret. If you love to please the Lord in purity of mind and body, here’s the guidance that God gives from Romans 13:14: “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.” That term make no provision means don’t put yourself in an unnecessary position that will likely stir up desires that you cannot control.
If you say, “Oh, we can control them,” I would remind you of two things. One is that God warns us that desires are deceitful (Ephesians 4:22). They’re deceitful, and sin is deceitful (Hebrews 3:13). This means that the desires of the body have a huge power over the mind and the will to make you think and will foolishly. That’s their power. Some temptations, therefore, are to be avoided, not just resisted.
God could indeed catch Jesus if he jumped off the temple, right (Luke 4:9–12)? He could. It would have been easy, easy, easy. God can do that just like he could keep you from fornication. Jesus said to Satan, “I’m not going to jump. Period.” His reason was what yours should be. “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test” (Luke 4:12). God could, if he willed, keep you pure on such a trip, but his warnings are such that you should say, “I’m not going to put the Lord to the test on this one.” That’s number one.
Here’s the second biblical teaching that should cause you to save this trip for when you’re married. Most of the people in the world, both religious and irreligious, assume that if you are traveling together, you will sleep together. Most who see you will not even know you have separate rooms, and the others will think that separate rooms are not going to keep you from sleeping together. After all, for most young people today, sex before marriage is normal. They would see you as just fitting in. That’s what they would assume.
Biblically informed people will assume you’re careless, if not sinning. Non-biblical people, ones you should care about a lot, will assume you are having sex. That’s what they’re going to assume. There’s no other way they can think about you as they watch you.
Here’s what God says about these kinds of observations from the world. He says, “Walk properly before outsiders” (1 Thessalonians 4:12). That word properly (Greek euschēmonōs) is a very interesting word. It means uprightly, properly, fittingly, suitably. Or, “Give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all” (Romans 12:17). Or, “We aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of man” (2 Corinthians 8:21).
If you love Christ more than the fun of such trip, and you want your lives to speak clearly about his standards of purity, I don’t think you will prioritize this trip over your commitment to communicate clearly the beauty of Christ’s standards of purity. That trip does not communicate that.
Third, by taking this trip or not taking it, you weaken or strengthen the standards of other Christians, especially younger ones who may be even weaker than you are and are looking for more justification to do what you’re about to do. Paul says, “If food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble” (1 Corinthians 8:13).
“The issue is not rights. The issue is love, purity, and whether you will participate in a destructive cultural pattern.”
Now, how much more would he avoid a three-week trip that will further normalize a practice that most people will simply not be able to carry out with sexual purity? Let me say that again. How much more would Paul say, “I’m not going to take a three-week trip that will further normalize a practice that most people will simply not be able to carry out with sexual purity”? Do you have a right to take this trip in your Christian freedom? Probably. “That’s just not the issue,” Paul would say.
“We put no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry” (2 Corinthians 6:3). For Paul, this meant not doing things that he had every right to do. The issue is not rights. The issue is love and purity and whether you will participate in a cultural pattern that is destruction in the long run.
Because of those three biblical teachings, I think your mother’s moral instincts about this trip are right. I would encourage you to save the joy of that kind of extended togetherness for marriage. You won’t regret it.
John Piper (@JohnPiper) is founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary. For 33 years, he served as pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is author of more than 50 books, including Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist and most recently Why I Love the Apostle Paul: 30 Reasons.
It’s times like these I appreciate the simplicity and ageless depth of Catholic teaching.
$100 says he porks her... he’s not going to pork her Russ.
There used to be a thing called CHAPERONES ( In the film the SOUND OF MUSIC, The Captain Von Trapp and his then, fiance, The Baroness had to be chaperoned by Max Detweiler as he takes her from Vienna to his home in Salzburg. Yes, TWO WIDOWED ADULTS !! ).
I guess that tradition is now passe.
The stolen fruit is the sweetest...
Piper is correct.
We play with sin and don’t take it seriously. We go right up to the edge with it.
Proverbs 6:27 paraphrased says, “Can a man (woman) hold fire to his chest and not get burned?”
In Scripture adultery is absolutely forbidden.
But guess what? The act of marriage however it is dressed up is ultimately the man and woman becoming one flesh.
So the first time, well, don’t be surprised to find that the Lord considers that becoming one flesh and thus the marriage.
So the first time can be a freebie ... and a commitment. Just because you didn’t think it was may not matter.
Some reason why they don’t just get married?
people need to understand that just because God doesn’t act to punish sin right away, that they are NOT getting away with sin- Sure, nothing happens for awhile, but consider this- you have very likely forfeited blessings, and later, God will hold you accountable somehow- sometimes in a very severe manner- such as King David when his sons rebelled against him later-
Again, just because nothing happens immediately after sinning, does not mean God forgets about it- (You are never guilty as far as salvation goes, BUT, we DO pay for our sins- the consequences of our actions)
God is VERY serious about sin folks- don’t just blow it off- Don’t be deceived by Satan to think it’s not all the serious- it is- There comes a day of reckoning- and it can be pretty bad- be smart- obey God in the power of the Holy Spirit- (don’t try to obey on your own- that is legalism-), and live with all the blessings He has in store for you now on earth- Yes, we will continue ot sin- but when we fall, we need to realize we will get what we deserve, but that God is a gracious God who has forgiven us completely in regards to eternal salvation- and strive to serve Him for His graciousness-
We tend to think we’re invulnerable, that God would never actually hold us accountable for our continual sins- Bzzzt- wrong answer-
“for a trip we scheduled five months ago”
What are they waiting for?
Get married.
I think we used to say “avoid near occasions of sin” and “avoid giving scandal”.
Some of us still do ...
This piece was overly dense/detailed, and too much of squeamish Piper and not enough of the purity of Jesus, who by the way had numerous female friends.
And the very celibate apostle Paul STAYED the night at the homes of single women on his travels, who offered him much in the way of hospitality if I am not mistaken. Regardless even if not, the above treatise(?) reveals the weakness inherent in Evangelical reliance on personal opinion— due to lack of a cohesive worldview that the Catholic Church is better equipped to articulate.
... A cohesive ‘theology of the body’ and a sacramental grasp of the spiritual institution of marriage...The glory and burdens of celibacy, the virtue of modesty in women, the chivalry of men, etc...— such beautiful, simple, yet profound truths and values could be communicated with so much less.
It just feels intrusive and violating when a pastor gets THIS involved in EVERY little detail of a Christian’s life! Piper is consulted like some guru on on just about every topic. What color curtains should Christians have etc...( I’m being facetious...and I don’t like his judgmental comments on Trump either.) But isn’t Protestantism about Biblical literacy and letting the Holy Spirit be your guide? Why is the Pastor chiming in so much?
And I say this as someone who frequently attends Evangelical studies and functions.
Another weakness of Evangelical culture unfortunately is a puritanical relationship to sex (and anything related to the senses including Art hence why there’s so little of it in that world) and yet a totally anti-spiritual/modernist approach to contraception...and other bioethical matters that bears little distinction from the greater pagan world. Bad combination.
There is a way of being chaste and not suffocated.
Perhaps, but I think mom is struggling with her own lust issues.
Before my wife and I married, we were also leaders of a religious program, and lived in proper celibacy as single Christians. Our biggest problem was the nosey gossipy church ladies, who constantly offered us "advice" and judged us.
Meanwhile their own kids were running wild, and many had kids with many different baby daddies.
Who had the idea of the trip first?
That will tell you everything you need to know.
“I’m troubled in wondering if we are dishonoring God by traveling together before marriage.”
I think he’s got bigger things he’s concerned with.
If you are walking together, you are doing the same thing, lady.
Also Kramer had to chaperone Jerry on his date with the beauty queen pageant contestant.
o Is this young couple even formally engaged to be married?
o Are they old enough for that?
o Is the counsel on a unilateral basis that excludes either the mother and/or the "boyfriend" as a part of the counseling?
In another, older, more properly mannered culture, the young unmarried woman would travel nowhere without her mother or a reliable older female or married couple as trusted chaperone(s). But that would not be likely if the trip was just to get the girl and boy together apart from her/their broader Christian family.
All in all, it is clear here that neither the girl or her boy friend sre spiritually mature enough to conduct themselves without some kind of oversight.
If the girl here was actually mature enough to see to her own affairs, then her relationship with her mother should be that of a younger woman to a senior, mature, experienced advisor in matters of occupation and conduct, whether married or not. This aspect is well and entirely covered in the brief comprehensive (but not exhaustive) passage of Titus 2:3-5 (AV):
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;In this case, with the proper wholesome relationship between the concerned mother and a daughter who is adult enough to have overcome the wicked one (see 1 Jn. 2:13,14), this should not have to be bumped up to the church elder's attention.
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
The young man, her boy friend, also ought to be able to discern a need to protect his own reputation as well as that of his as-yet-unbetrothed girl friend, by not even having suggested that they have such an adventure in view. Continuing the Titus passage through the next verses 6, 7, and 8:
Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,I would think that covers the whole situation from God's viewpoint and worthy of taking heed for the benefit of all concerned.
Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Do you spend time alone dating now in the US? What would be the difference?
Do the separate hotel rooms have an adjoining door?
Whether yes or no, I’d suggest making mama happy, and putting temptation further away, by agreeing to stay in different hotels.
My daughter is maid of honor for a wedding of two Christians. They wanted to go to his families beach house for a few days and invited my daughter to come as their chaperone.
It’s rare, refreshing and still done.
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