Posted on 03/28/2019 2:51:44 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai . Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.( Daniel 8:2-6)
I believe that the study of prophecy is very similar to painting pictures with “paint by number”. At first, you fill in numbers with various colors and can’t make out what the picture actually is. Eventually as you keep laboring, the picture begins to emerge , and the details become more evident and clear.
When I began the Christian life, I knew one thing about Eschatology, Jesus was coming back! As I made scripture my life’s study, details began to emerge;the prophesied rebirth of the Jewish State,Israel, the worldwide siege around Jerusalem and Judea (the West Bank), the whole world will turn on Israel, the role of Islam in endgame events, the role of the United Nations also, …etc. .
Sometimes the clear vision of end times events is held up because of faulty teaching, almost like getting the wrong color in the wrong number. I have found that we must be ever open to scripture and not cling too tightly to our previous understanding of prophecy.
The picture is beginning to emerge, though of course I do not have all of the details, but those who have ears to hear are beginning to see the vision of the Parousia and the events leading to it.
For years I have pored over the prophecies of Daniel, as Jesus told us we should in Matthew 24:15, but I must confess that something has been pointed out to me, by a teacher named Joel Richardson, which I have never seen before. I don’t necessarily agree with all of Joel’s conclusions, but I have to admit that he is right about the point I am about to go into.
The great insight which may seem small to some of you, (but is radical to me) is that the vision of Daniel 8 is for the end times.
So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.(Daniel 8:17) And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.(Daniel 8:19)
I had been taught, and have taught(correctly) that Daniel 8 was a prediction of the rise of the Medo-Persian Empire(the Ram) and the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great,(The Goat). Daniel predicted these things in the 6th century BC and everything he said was fulfilled in the fourth century BC. This vision is in line with Daniel’s interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar’s vision in Daniel 2, giving more details of the Persian and Greek periods.
But what I didn’t notice is the repetitious angelic announcement that this vision would be fulfilled in the “time of the end”, the last days of the “indignation” the time of Israel’s subjection to Gentile powers.
There is a prophetic law of dual fulfillment, so I believe I was right about the earlier fulfillment of the vision, but I missed the fact that this clear vision is for the “time of the end”, and is a very significant insight into the near future of two major World Powers which have arisen in prominence very recently, Persia(Iran) and Greece (Turkey).
We need to consider this very carefully…
So you think we are in the end times? Very possible that is correct. Certainly seems like end times, but then again I am not the first person that has thought they were in the end times, when they were not. Time will tell I guess.
It’s very close to going home time!
I thought his book "The Islamic Antichrist" was very thought-provoking.
I have always been taught this.
When I was a kid, I would get bored during the sermon and read the Bible. Even as a child I figured out that it was talking about the Persian Empire and then Alexander.
Actually I think it says later who they were but I had already figured it out.
I believe Daniel’s time of the “end” is the same thing as the “day of the Lord” other prophets mention. Christ also uses the term in a specific way in the Olivet Discourse in answer to His disciples’ questions about the “end.” Christ specifically references Daniel when mentioning the abomination of desolation.
It is important to distinguish certain prophetic events: Daniel’s seventieth week, the beginning of sorrows, the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord / the End.
The Great Tribulation begins when Satan is cast out of Heaven by Michael in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. At that time, the antichrist will proclaim himself to be God and force the world to worship him. He will launch the greatest persecution of God’s people in history, but his efforts will fail because of God’s supernatural intervention, culminating in signs in the heavens, forcing all of the inhabitants of the world to take shelter underground. Christ will then gather His elect and unleash an ever-increasing sequence of judgments, mostly by fire, on those who remain on the earth. This is the second coming and the Day of the Lord.
The signs in the heavens, including the return of Christ, mark the end of the Great Tribulation and the onset of the Day of the Lord. These signs clearly take place at the end based on the Olivet Discourse. But they also fulfill Joel’s prophecies which show these same signs must happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord.
That the Day of the Lord is distinct and separate from the Great Tribulation is also supported by the fact that the antichrist exalts himself during the Great Tribulation, but in the Day of the Lord, only the Lord will be exalted.
While there are many things difficult to be understood in prophecy, it’s practical application is very important. We must watch expectantly AND wait patiently for Christ’s return. When we understand that persecution is normative for Christians, we can see how it is also to be expected that we will face the antichrist before Christ’s return. Those who are convinced otherwise may have their faith shaken when their expectation of Christ’s return to happen first (being taken out of the world before these things happen) turns out to be incorrect.
God gave Paul revelation of a snarching away of those who are born again / have been born again. [ 1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 2-5, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 and following ] This group of people are 'the Bride of Christ', the Body of Christ. There are Biblical reasons for the Rapture of the Ekklesia. A couple are, 1) to remove those regenerated individuals who are alive in Christ (or the deceased who were in Christ and died), and 2) to reveal Messiah to a group of 144,000 JEWS who will spearhead the final evangelization of all humankind but especially the alive Jews.)
The seven years of tribulation are GOD'S dealing with Israel and those upon the Earth who have rejected The Grace of God in Christ, an age during which those 'in Christ' are supposed to be doing the evengelizing.
During the seven years it is Jews who will be doing the evangelizing, because JESUS is coming in the air to snatch away His Bride before GOD begins pouring our His wrath in ever increasing degrees during the seven years.
Those for whom God is coming to snatch away have been told to be ever ready to leave because there are no prophetic markers which will herald His command to ‘come up hither’. The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord, on the other hand, is hallmarked by several signs of it arriving.
I agree MHGinTN.
I think an important part of understanding prophecy is deciphering who the message is intended. We need to take into account that Paul is the Apostle unto the Gentiles. Without Pauls Epistles, we would be hard pressed to understand the Word of God.
To the Jew first, then to the Gentile. And since Israel, as a nation has yet to receive Jesus as their Savior, the Jews will go through Great Tribulation. The time of Jacobs troubles. Especially specified as Jews is the 144,000 written in Revelations. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Hence, Johns recipients in the Book of Revelation for the most part.
The church is described in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation, and then in 4:1 “Come up hither” (referenced to the Rapture.) From that point on, the church is rarely referenced but for returning with Jesus at the end of the tribulation period.
Then there are also those that are beheaded and washed in the Blood of the Lamb, having come out of the Tribulation. This speaks of those which were not Born Again prior to the beginning of the Tribulation (and the time of the rapture) but when faced with receiving the mark of the beast and receiving his mark, they chose eternal life instead.
Note, in Thessalonians 5, Paul is speaking to the church (Believers) and he states:
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
“Cometh upon them”-those left behind-”as travail upon a woman with child”-an obvious reference to the Jews.
Again, Paul speaking to the Church writes:
1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
That Trumpet is about to sound!
Take a look at 1Thess 1:10. The Greek verb tense is has delivered us ... from the wrath to come.
In a manuscript I’m working on the scene with Lazarus stands out to me as an example of what will happen to those ‘in Christ’ yet in the grave. Lazarus was brought from Sheol to struggle out of the tomb. But The Lord had cleansed his body else the soul would not have been put back in the body! And that cleansing happened in a twinkling of an eye at the Loud command of Jesus to come forth.
When Jesus was speaking in the Gospels, He was yet fulfilling His mission so to speak.
In a way, the New Testament had not yet come into effect until the shedding of Blood.
Hebrews 9:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Again, this brings context to whom Jesus was speaking to and whom Paul was speaking to.
It was further decided that Peter would continue preaching to the circumcised (Jews) and Paul to the uncircumcised (Gentile and converted Jewish believers)
Yes, I like that. Notice also, because of the Power in the Voice of Jesus, He had to specify the name of Lazarus when He said “Lazarus come forth” otherwise all the graves would have opened.
When Jesus descended into the depths of the Earth, He victoriously entered Paradise with the keys, therby released those that had died with the hope of the One to come, and took captivity captive when He Ascended.
What many fail to understand is that from that point forward, Paradise has been empty. Now when one dies as a Believer, that person goes to be with the Lord. Hence, Paul stated, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”
One day soon, those bodies will rise and be reunited with their spirit and soul.
Soon and very soon ...
Here is my take. End times prophesy is interesting, but that’s about it. There is far too much speculation from far too many different groups. And they are all vastly different, and yet similar. I know TONS of people who were convinced during the Obama years, that it was the end times. Shoot, I even knew a guy who moved to New Zealand to escape the judgement coming to America. He’s in Texas somewhere now years later. I feel and always felt that opinion is extremely self-centered and foolish. It makes them, America, and it’s politics the center of the world.
It’s a Christians job to prepare for Christs second coming and expect persecution. To maintain the faith unto death if necessary. People can have all their speculation they want, until Kingdom literally comes. It doesn’t matter.
“In John 14 Jesus tells His disciples that He is going away to prepare ‘a place’ for them, in the Father’s House where there are many rooms and that He will come and take them to Himself and return ‘there’ to the Father’s House.”
John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
“There” is with Jesus. There is wherever He is. I think the evidence supports the eternal dwelling is the New Jerusalem.
Galatians 4:26
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
Revelation 21:1-2
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This dwelling place is going to be brought down to earth and will become part of a new ecosystem during the millennial reign.
The place our Lord said He would prepare was not ready when He spoke the words of John 14 to His disciples. Is it ready yet? “Only My Father knows,” Jesus would say (in Matthew 24:36). This is part of the wedding / marriage analogy according to Jewish wedding customs.
Currently, Satan accuses us before God day and night. He has not yet been cast out of Heaven. Part of preparing the place for us is the removal of Satan permanently from Heaven. This will occur in precisely the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. It will be done by Michael, who is the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2 (which is an exposition of Daniel and is alluding to Daniel 12 in which Michael is the one who stands at the specific moment antichrist is revealed at the abomination of desolation).
“God gave Paul revelation of a snarching away of those who are born again / have been born again. [ 1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 2-5, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 and following ] This group of people are ‘the Bride of Christ’, the Body of Christ.”
Almost. Peter, James, John, and Andrew heard the Olivet Discourse, which includes living saints being gathered. The mystery revealed to Paul (a Biblical mystery is something hidden in the Old Testament but revealed in the New) was that living saints would be transformed and receive glorified bodies in an instant. This mystery includes the fact that the last generation of believers will not experience death.
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
“This group of people are ‘the Bride of Christ’, the Body of Christ. There are Biblical reasons for the Rapture of the Ekklesia. A couple are, 1) to remove those regenerated individuals who are alive in Christ (or the deceased who were in Christ and died), and 2) to reveal Messiah to a group of 144,000 JEWS who will spearhead the final evangelization of all humankind but especially the alive Jews.)”
All of this is speculation based on a pre-tribulational rapture perspective rather than any specific Biblical text. I’m not arguing that this alone makes it false, but it is very important to distinguish between man-made theological positions and the actual scriptures.
I consider the idea that Old Testament saints not being part of the body of Christ to be, what I would describe as, hyper-dispensationalism. Yes, there are different dispensations. Yes, God is not done working through His earthly people, Israel. No, the Church did not replace Israel. However, the true spiritual Israel was always a a subset of the external nation of Israel, just as those who are truly born-again believers are a subset of the external, visible Church today. Yes, the Church and the Church age (as it has been labeled) began with the coming of the Holy Spirit. But remember that the Church includes all nationalities, including Israel. The Church has been grafted into the vine (Christ), but Israel will be grafted back into the same vine. Jesus said there will be one fold and one Shepherd.
In terms of the rapture, this means that the “dead in Christ” includes Old Testament saints. There are too numerous of passages to cite to address this without making my post even longer than it is.
“The seven years of tribulation are GOD’S dealing with Israel and those upon the Earth who have rejected The Grace of God in Christ, an age during which those ‘in Christ’ are supposed to be doing the evengelizing.”
Again, this is simply stating the pre-trib position rather than providing evidentiary support. But there are numerous problems with the timeline you are putting forward. And many of these issues revolve around the distinction between Daniel’s seventieth week, and the Day of the Lord. Christ’s second coming (and to be clear, the rapture IS the second coming and there will not be a third) coincides with the arrival of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord follows the Great Tribulation. the Great Tribulation begins in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week.
To provide a satisfactory defense of any theoretical timing of the rapture, there are certain questions that must be answered:
Why does Christ mark the End of the Great Tribulation with signs in the heavens, including the darkened sun and moon, while Joel indicates this sign precedes the Day of the Lord?
If Daniel’s seventieth week begins with deception and false peace, why is the Day of the Lord described as “sudden destruction”?
How can the “restrainer” of 2 Thessalonians 2 be the Holy Spirit when Peter describes Pentecost as a fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit before the Day of the Lord? How can this prophecy, given to Israel, be fulfilled by the Church if the Church is removed? (See Joel 2:28-32, which Peter and Paul both quote and apply to salvation in the “church age” as we call it.) How does the greatest evangelism ever (uncountable multitude in Heaven in Revelation 7) occur without the outpoured Holy Spirit?
When does the strong delusion of 2 Thessalonians 2 occur? What specifically is “the lie” referred to there?
How can the Day of the Lord encompass the Great Tribulation if it cannot not come (according to 2 Thessalonians 2) until after the antichrist is revealed by setting up the abomination of desolation which occurs in the exact middle of Daniel’s seventieth week?
How can antichrist “exalt himself” at the abomination of desolation and afterward (causing the whole world to worship him) if the time period is the same as or overlaps the Day of the Lord, if the Day of the Lord is a time in which ONLY the Lord is exalted?
Isaiah 2:10-12
Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty.
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—
“JESUS is coming in the air to snatch away His Bride before GOD begins pouring our His wrath in ever increasing degrees during the seven years.”
Yes, Jesus is going to take His bride out before the Day of the Lord / Day of Wrath. But this is NOT Daniel’s seventieth week, as I’ve provided some evidence to support. Daniel’s seventieth week culminates in Israel’s repentance and restoration; it does not begin with it. God will continue to operate in and through the Church (including Jewish believers) during the first half and part of the second of Daniel’s seventieth week. The Church will face her arch-enemy, the antichrist. We will endure times of deception, war, famine, disease, natural disaster, and persecution, just as God’s people have endured in the past. We will not endure ANY of God’s wrath which includes fire poured out from Heaven, and torture by demonic beings, etc. that are described AFTER the Day of Wrath begins.
“Those for whom God is coming to snatch away have been told to be ever ready to leave because there are no prophetic markers which will herald His command to ‘come up hither’. The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord, on the other hand, is hallmarked by several signs of it arriving.”
As I already said, we are commanded to watchful readiness AND patient waiting.
2 Thessalonians 3:5
Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ.
James 5:7a
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
All of the indicators for watchfulness pertain to the coming of the Day of the Lord as well as the coming of Christ for the church because they occur simultaneously. Those who watch and are ready will not be taken by surprise because they do see the signs. Those who are not looking will not see them and will not be ready.
Christ said this AFTER listing the signs of His coming (as His disciples asked Him):
Matthew 24:36-44
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Keep in mind that His coming in this passage is specifically after the Great Tribulation. See verse 29. Watching for Christ’s return means watching for the signs of His return.
Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
What Day is this? It is the Day of the coming of the Lord, i.e. the Day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
How can the “Day of the Lord” come like a thief in the night (same language Christ used for His return in numerous places) if it is preceded by signs, as you have said? It is because readiness does not preclude watchfulness and knowing the signs of His coming which He plainly gave us.
2 Peter 3:10-14
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
Again Peter directs us to watch (i.e. be looking) AND be ready (i.e. be found by Him in peace). And how do we look for something that will come like a thief? By being ready and watching for the signs.
And I will point out again that the Day of the Lord does not start off with “the beginning of birth pains” as Daniel’s seventieth week does. Revelation 6 describes peace being taken from the earth during the second seal. How can it be taken unless there is peace during the first seal? But the Day of the Lord does NOT begin with calm before the storm. It is the storm. It is “sudden destruction.” It is a “the earth... being burned up.” It is Christ returning with rest for us and fire for the wicked. (See 2 Thessalonians 1.)
Failing to distinguish between Daniel’s seventieth week and the Day of the Lord is lulling the western church to sleep, making many unprepared for what must come to pass prior to Christ’s return, namely facing the antichrist who makes war against the saints.
Christ taught that in this world we will have tribulation. He prayed for us, not to be taken out the world, but to be delivered from the Evil One. The church will be delivered through, rather than out of, the Great Tribulation. She will be removed from the world before God pours out His fiery wrath.
What tribulation is in the Tribulation is from GOD, not ‘the world’. BTW, in the Greek ‘where the word ‘mansions’ is used the Greek refers to rooms, like the rooms of an Inn, not permanent mansion. We will be in Heaven with The Lord during the seven years God is pouring out His wrath in increasing degrees upon the earth, persuading the Jews of Messiah’s soon arrival upon the Earth WITH we who were caught up along.
Fascinating discussion. Well laid out debate. I have a few comments but don’t want to cloud the discussion.
However, without complicating the debate, I am of the pretrib rapture belief. I do believe the seventieth week begins with the 7yr peace treaty, coinciding with the beginning of the seven year tribulation (encompassing the entire seven years not just 3 1/2 years great tribulation)
I also hold the possibility that the rapture could preclude the signing of the false peace covenant perhaps by months or even a few years. But Daniels seventieth week would begin with the signing, not the rapture.
At the same time, I’ve always been taught, as you alluded to in your question, I have a hard time believing that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth. So I agree with you on this account. Since many will come to the Lord during the tribulation period, and without the Holy Spirit present, I don’t understand how anyone can be Born Again.
I believe the 7 year tribulation period is to be fulfilled with the physical return of Jesus Christ to Earth. (thereby also completing the church age dispensation) And at that moment will the 1000 year Kingdom Age Millennial reign begin. So also would the New Jerusalem be established.
I don’t have the opportunity right now for time, but notice, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter quoted Joels Prophecy, but not in it’s entirety, because on that day the prophecy was only partially fulfilled, and will be completely fulfilled during the Great Tribulation period, as Jesus stated in the Olivet Discourse.
Wish I had more time at the present to discuss this. My comments are not meant to complicate the discussion. Again, great debate.
BTW, a couple things I should add for the sake of discussion, the terms Rapture and Resurrection are one in the same.
And beginning with the Rapture of the Church, through the tribulation period, I believe Scriptures conclude multiple Resurrections/Raptures. The Church, the two Witnesses, the 144,000 Jews, etc.
At any rate, when Jesus returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom, He returns with those that were Resurrected.
It just occurred to me, could “The Day of the Lord” begin with the referencing of the “mid point” of the 7yr tribulation period and the abomination of desolation? Could this also be the division point between the two Dispensations? Food for thought?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.