Posted on 02/05/2018 8:24:42 AM PST by NRx
Of those traditions kept by my conservative Mennonite church, a foot-washing ritual was one of the more notable. It is a practice based in the example of Jesus who washed the feet of the disciples and then instructed them to follow his example:
When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.” (John 13:12-17, NIV)
So, twice a year with communion, after a sermon about some aspect of the sacrifice Jesus made, after partaking of some bread and grape juice together and then another short reminder of why we were doing the stuff we did, the men would be dismissed to the basement (leaving the women the upstairs to do their symbolic washing) and on the way down we men would pair up with the guy beside us or another guy that we selected for whatever reason.
(Excerpt) Read more at mennoworld.org ...
I was raised in a country Pentecostal Church.
The services were sometimes akin to a rock-concert.
People would be filled with the Holy Spirit, the drums, bass, guitar and piano would get louder and people were dancing in the aisles.
I’ll never forget the first time I had to attend a Catholic Church.....quite a culture shock for me because where I was raised, Church was pretty old school and free-form, heavy on Jesus vs Satan whereas the Catholic Church was stand up, sit down, do this, say that.
I am of the opinion that rituals and traditions have their place and uses. They often provide a level of comfort to the members. However, the danger is when tradition becomes dogma.
An obtuse, artificially constructed example:
Praying in church is a good thing. But if that becomes the dogma that ONLY praying in church is effective, then that crosses over the line in my opinion.
“I’ll never forget the first time I had to attend a Catholic Church.....quite a culture shock for me because where I was raised, Church was pretty old school and free-form, heavy on Jesus vs Satan whereas the Catholic Church was stand up, sit down, do this, say that.”
Old school worship was “stand up, sit down, do this, say that.” What you did in the Mennonite Church was new school. I’m just saying . . .
“But if that becomes the dogma that ONLY praying in church is effective, then that crosses over the line in my opinion.”
And what Church EVER taught that?
God created man. Man created rituals.
Allow me to point you back to my post:
“An obtuse, artificially constructed example:”
“Allow me to point you back to my post:“An obtuse, artificially constructed example:””
Thus, you’re saying there are no dangers “when tradition becomes dogma” because the only example you can come up with is one you just created.
Haha.....true.....I guess I mean “old school” from my personal perspective.
Wow, you really missed my point both times and jumped to wild conclusions based on facts not in evidence. Allow me to be more specific.
Assertion: In my OPINION, there is a danger when man takes tradition and replaces scripture based teachings with man’s dogma
An Example: I provided as an extreme hyperbolic example so as to make the point but not offend any denomination. The example beng a denomination that would have the dogma of only prayers in church are effective. This was an intentionally artificial construct so as to make the point without offending.
I can come up with a lot of examples of how man’s traditions contradict or are at least not in conformance with scripture. However, for the sake of public discourse and civility I choose not to offend. Again, this is an artificial construct and was stated as such.
So you used an example you knew was untrue and made no sense?
The objective was to provide a hyperbole - i.e an example not meant to be taken literally. Further, it was disclaimed as being an artificially constructed example. However, you have constructed a straw-man argument that misses the point being made.
That’s what he lives for.
That style of old school worship started with the reformation.
Before the reformation, "The role of the laity was to all intents and purposes that of a spectator" - Josef A. Jungmann
“...to make the point but not offend any denomination.”
What the hell, I’ll offend for you.
Both denominations mentioned above, Pentecostals and Catholics, and probably most/all others, should quite logically be suspected to fit what you describe - to wildly varying degrees, of course.
To offend more specifically:
—The Pentecostal public babbling of so-called ‘tongues’, dancing and other activities which become, to one extent or another, expected physical behaviors or signs of validity. Even worse, silly things like snake-handling, etc.
—The Catholic emphasis on man-based hierarchies and approvals plus BS like celibate priests, etc.
Again, those are my long-considered though admittedly still personal opinions. I’m not here to defend or destroy these things.
Pick any denomination. And you can find things about it which other generally decent Christians would find at least odd and possibly as bad as blasphemous.
After all, that’s what denominations are invented to address. We Christians have never ALL agreed on ALL aspects of our faith
The important thing to remember about denominations is that they will always be with us. ALWAYS. At least till the return of Christ. And recall most of the ‘churches’ mentioned as being reviewed by Christ in His Revelation are at that point NOT teaching doctrine which pleased Him.
We should strive to heed what the bible says about the treatment of brethren, fellow believers in God. Meaning we should treat/love them as we like/expect to be treated/loved.
Discuss, disagree, delve deeper and debate. But always separate or denominate before giving in to the temptation to conflagrate - to the extent such is at all avoidable.
Paul was obviously worried about denominationalism because he tried to keep folks centered on the simplicity of salvation via Christ.
He wanted us all to be of one mind on the basics. That was a hard mission and not fully achieved even in those days where some believers were actual witnesses of Christ in the flesh and/or instructed directly by His disciples.
And Paul emphasized the ‘freedom’ of salvation in Christ. By which he specifically meant freedom from the Jewish hierarchy at least regarding how you pay for sin today -vs- the old system of sacrificing animals and such.
And, in thus is the very definition of irony.
Because there are today, unfortunately, even flavors of Christianity which badly misunderstand Paul’s freedom doctrine. They have incorporated very spiritually unhelpful nonsense into their teachings regarding physical behavior - they actually believe they are not able to sin again after being saved.
It is always OK to question the origins of specific denom traditions. Obviously, they should be bible-based. But that alone does not imply correct understanding or implementation of concepts.
One sign that tradition/doctrine is increasingly suspicious is when it distracts from further learning.
These man-based or physical things absolutely are NOT required for salvation, but they can and do become part of the ‘practice’ of faith for some denoms.
People should run the numbers. Do I spend more time repeating physical behaviors over and over. And over? Or more time studying His word and related information for context and translation accuracy, etc?
True faith is something which does not need to be ‘practiced’ in the sense of physical repetitions, mindless chants or public displays.
But rather something matured via continuously deeper understanding of His will for us and a further determination to pursue it.
Whatever gets in the way of that is perhaps not evil itself, but it is not helping believers to, as Paul would say, eventually graduate from the basic milk of salvation and up to the meat of faith.
Also, the only thing I found wrong with what you said is your assessment of your own initial example. Technically, it was not obtuse. Just the opposite, it was clear what you meant to accomplish. Your audience was, in my opinion, purposely thick about it all - obtuse.
Please ping me the day you rip on Episcopalians.
I’ve got some baggage to unload!
“... some baggage to unload!”
Go ahead and dump. This is a dead thread. But I at least will read whatever you wish to write.
I have no desire to rip on your flavor of Christianity. I assume you understood my larger point that we Christians have always had and always (at least till the return of Christ) will have our differences of opinion about doctrine and such.
The important part is that the flavors, mostly, avoid violent conflict over disagreement regarding lesser issues and still consider each other brethren who believe in Christ’s ability to save us.
And that we all agree on the most basic elements of faith:
-God is the only God
-Christ is the only way to salvation
-The devil wears a pant suit
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.