Revelation 12; (Don't Go By Astrology!) pt 1

https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/revelation-12-dont-go-by-astrology/ ^ | 08-23-17 | Bill Randles

[Bob434]

it’s not just the heavenly sign- it’s also the fact that ‘a generation shall not pass’ that plays into it and this year marks 70 years since Israel became a nation- a generation is thought to be between 70 and 80 years- Israel becoming a nation in one day was an incredible act that fulfilled prophecy- and possibly marked the start of ‘the generation’ spoken of by Christ

Babylon as we speak is being rebuilt by UNESCO- and before them Saddam hussein believe it or not was rebuilding the city- He believed himself to be a descendant of King Nebuchadnezzar and even had money created depicting both him and the king and bricks made with his and Neb’s pictures on them or some such thing- It is said that once the rebuilding begins in earnest- it will be built very quickly as money pours in from nations all over the world to help with the efforts-

There are also other possible signs culminating soon that play into all this- which tend to lean strongly towards the idea that it’s all more than just coincidence-

However, I believe the proper response is to say “It could happen, We hope it does happen- There —seems to be— many signs aligning here- but if not, then We’ll carry on as usual and continue to hope that it happens within our lifetime’

[Bob434]

[[Having said all of that, we are forbidden to try to divine events by the position of the stars, even if it seems to fulfill scripture.]]

It isn’t divining when God gives us verses telling us that He is going to create this sign spoken of in revelations in the sky for us to behold-

Where do you draw the line between observign clear signs that God states He is goign to give us, and someone who looks to hte stars to try to predict future? Clearly on one Hand God is telling us He will send us a celestial sign that will usher in future events, and on the other we’re told not to look to the stars to try to predict future events-
\
I think the answer might lie in the fact that divining is predicting while the signs God states will happen are fulfillment of prophecy

[freedomjusticeruleoflaw]

Genesis 14- The stars, moon, and the sun were CREATED to be SIGNS in the heavens... SPECIFICALLY.

[Boogieman]

“a generation is thought to be between 70 and 80 years”

Or, maybe that’s what you say now because it’s convenient to help fit your interpretation to the present time. Previously, all the predictors were saying “a generation is 40 years” and measuring from 1948, but then 1988 rolled around and nothing happened. So they said “well we have to start the 40 years from 1967, when Jerusalem was retaken”, but then nothing happened in 2007. So now they say “well it’s 70 years from 1948”, and when nothing happens by 2018, they’ll probably squirm around and say “it’s 70 years from 1967” to give them a couple more decades before their predictions are disproven.

[Boogieman]

“It isn’t divining when God gives us verses telling us that He is going to create this sign spoken of in revelations in the sky for us to behold-”

Read the chapter again. God never says “I am going to give you a sign in the heavens, look out for it”. JOHN sees a “wonder in heaven” during his visions, and writes down his description of it. There is never any instruction for us to look for a “sign in the heavens” ourselves or try to make the astrological contrivances of the pagans fit this supposed sign.

[Bob434]

[[Previously, all the predictors were saying “a generation is 40 years”]]

I believe that’s not true- it was common to say that but I believe a generation has always been- post biblical old testament times- 70-80 on average-

[Bob434]

and by the way- noone is squirming- (Noone who is intellectually honest that is)- Our view is that the signs appear to be culminating- Christ may return soon- if we are wrong then so be it- life goes on-

[Bob434]

[[Read the chapter again. God never says “I am going to give you a sign in the heavens, look out for it”. -———JOHN sees a “wonder in heaven” during his visions-————]]

in other words God Did already give the sign, or rather gave details of what the sign will be before Christ returns-

Nope- God never specifically said “I am going to give you a sign in the heavens, look out for it”- Rather He just came out and gave us the sign to look for through John’s vision- God never —specifically said’ many things, yet we know He meant specific things without explicitly being told outright that they would happen-

Not sure what your point is? Seems pretty clear to me the sign was given to John for future generations to go by- Are you claiming that sign will not infact appear because God didn’t specifically say to John “I am going to give you a sign in the heavens, look out for it”?

[veracious]

The Rev. like star sign has occured a couple of times, with three different planets adding to the constellation seven. The set occuring this year occured in the same year as Sodom and Gommorrah.

The key occurance, was a Yeshua’s birth on Sept. 11, 3BC. With plenty of Regulus and Jupiter activities to clarrify the meaning.

[delchiante]

Bob434,
that woman hangs out above Israel’s head in the Fall like the ‘2 Fish’ hang out above Israel’s head in the Spring.

that woman, a couple thousand years ago, didn’t hang above Israel’s head in the fall like it does now. That woman hung out in the summer. Science tells us the earth and its wobble tends to make things appear to move, in relation to where we are.

There was a time ‘The scale’ was above their head in the Fall.
And the ‘2 fish’ up there now wasn’t up there in the Spring at the same time- the Ram was.

Then:
Passover, Spring- The Ram
Day of atonement, Fall- The Scale/Balance

Now:
Passover, Spring- The ‘2 Fish’
Day of Atonement, Fall- The Woman

Coming:
Passover, Spring- A Man carrying a jar of water (ref Mark/Luke I believe)
Day of Atonement, Fall- The Lion

That woman and the sun and the moon do things all the time-
That moon ended up under her feet on September 26 2014, October 14 2015 and October 3rd 2016.
all of those were Appointment Dates He taught Israel.

And ‘Israel’ went 1 for 3. That batting average gets you into the Hall of Fame in baseball.
Not so much when trying to keep His Appointed Times (the word ‘seasons’ in Genesis 1:14)

And that sign is remarkable because it does actually speak to the birth of the manchild..
Maybe Christianity will start a path to more sanctification and stop accepting December 25 when that sign in the sky is nowhere near the winter.

[Boogieman]

“by the way- noone is squirming”

Not yet perhaps.

“if we are wrong then so be it- life goes on”

If the prognosticators are wrong, most likely they will find some way to weasel around and say the words really predict it will all happen a couple decades later, like they always do. That way they buy themselves more time to shear the flock.

[Boogieman]

“in other words God Did already give the sign”

If you are going to read the Bible and say “in other words, blah blah blah”, you might as well just write your own “bible” and be done with it.

“Seems pretty clear to me the sign was given to John for future generations to go by- Are you claiming that sign will not infact appear because God didn’t specifically say to John “I am going to give you a sign in the heavens, look out for it”?”

I’m saying God never said He was talking about a sign at all, much less a sign you should be looking for, or a sign that would portend anything. Silly humans made all that up, don’t attribute it to God.

[Boogieman]

“I believe that’s not true- it was common to say that but I believe a generation has always been- post biblical old testament times- 70-80 on average-”

Sure, it was common to say that because it was convenient for those foretelling imminent doom, just like “70 years” is convenient for them now.

[Bob434]

[[Not yet perhaps.]]

Not ever- If He doesn’t come back- oh well- We’ve lost nothing- life goes on as usual- You seem to be of the mindset that we’re staking everything on Him coming back at that date- as though We’ll be somehow devastated and nonfunctional if He doesn’t- That’s just silly-

It -could be- another decade- as a generation is between 70 and 80 years- or it could be another 1000 or more years- ALL we’re saying is that some signs —appear to be lining up— and for folks to keep an eye out incase they actually are the signs that indicate the end is near-

You seem mighty put off by this for some reason?

[[If you are going to read the Bible and say “in other words, blah blah blah”, you might as well just write your own “bible” and be done with it.]]

No thanks God gave us His word- no need to write my own- It’s pretty clear that He told John there will be a sign in the heavens

[[I’m saying God never said He was talking about a sign at all,]]

Really? Hmmm: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken” (Matthew 24:29). (Heavenly Sign of the end of tribulation)

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord” (Joel 2:30-31). (Another heavenly sign that something is about to happen)

Now a great sign appeared in heaven:
a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet,
and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
REVELATION 12:1-2 (Another series of signs-)

[[Sure, it was common to say that because it was convenient for those foretelling imminent doom, just like “70 years” is convenient for them now.]]

Sorry- if you look into it- it wasn’t just a common saying- it was a scientific fact- generations always referred to those who survived infant issues- not on infant deaths- those who survived on average survived 70-80 years- just like today-

[Boogieman]

“You seem to be of the mindset that we’re staking everything on Him coming back at that date- as though We’ll be somehow devastated and nonfunctional if He doesn’t”

Nah, you’ll just be wrong like all the other prognosticators have always been wrong. For some reason that doesn’t seem to deter them from continuing their fruitless endeavors.

“You seem mighty put off by this for some reason?”

Sure, I guess you could say I get “put off” by people misusing the Bible and mixing it with pagan astrology to try and mislead Christians. Go figure.

“It’s pretty clear that He told John there will be a sign in the heavens”

Not in Revelation 12 he didn’t. John was shown a series of visions in heaven, but God never says “there will be a sign in heaven” or anything like that in the chapter that these prognostications hinge on. Notice you have to say “it’s pretty clear”, blah blah blah because you can’t actually quote the Bible saying what you would like it to say.

“Really? Hmmm: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken” (Matthew 24:29). (Heavenly Sign of the end of tribulation)”

Well that is in Matthew 24, not Revelation 12. I never said the Bible never talks about anything happening in the heavens. However, there is no sign actually predicted in Revelation 12, and anyway, since this verse in Matthew clearly states this happens “after the tribulation” it can’t possibly be a sign to watch out for before the tribulation has even begun. So unless you want to argue that the tribulation has already happened and nobody noticed, it seems that verse won’t help salvage your theory.

“(Joel 2:30-31). (Another heavenly sign that something is about to happen)”

The same signs spoken of there correspond to the signs in Matthew 24; it’s the same event in the same chronology, so it can’t apply to what you are referring to, for the same reasons Matthew 24 doesn’t apply.

“REVELATION 12:1-2 (Another series of signs-)”

A series of signs shown to John in a vision, that are never said to be signs that will appear to us, or that we are to watch out for, and we are never given any reference as to them preceding events on earth, which is why you have to try to reference those other verses talking about completely different “signs” in order to try and make your argument.

“it was a scientific fact- generations always referred to those who survived infant issues- not on infant deaths- those who survived on average survived 70-80 years- just like today”

“Generations” is variably interpreted by the prognosticators to be whatever is convenient for them to try and fit their current interpretations to. What is “scientific fact” doesn’t seem to matter much to them if it gets in the way of them pitching their latest flim flam.

[Bob434]

[[However, there is no sign actually predicted in Revelation 12,]]

We’re going to have to agree to disagree- I and many others see that there is clearly a sign mentioned through visions for specific purpose- when that sign will appear is unknown- but there are signs that —could support— it being soon- We believe that when John and others were shown visions that they were signs of things to come, and that this went without saying- just as the old testament prophets were given visions of things to come- John was no different- Dreams and visions were given to reveal God’s plans- both in old and new testament- there was nothing pagan about that- God even mentioned to look to the heavens for signs

Again- We’re going to have to agree to disagree- I have more important things at the moment to worry about than some insignificant disagreement about visions given to John that are signs that may or may not happen in the near future-

IF nothing happens, then no big deal- IF Christians are raptured post haste- then great- I won’t have to face what i have to face for long- either way time marches on- and God will come back at some point- Noone is going to panic if the rapture doesn’t happen when we think it could possibly happen- and noone is engaging in ‘pagan astrology’ by thinking that God gave John a specific sign in a vision like He did to other prophets throughout the ages-

Have a nice day

[Boogieman]

"IF Christians are raptured post haste- then great"

There's no "rapture" until the tribulation is over anyway. The Bible clearly says living won't precede the dead entering the Kingdom, and that all happens at the first resurrection at Christ's second coming.

"noone is engaging in ‘pagan astrology’ by thinking that God gave John a specific sign in a vision like He did to other prophets throughout the ages"

Believing God gave John visions is not really the issue. All Christians believe John had visions. The issue is trying to use pagan astrology to interpret those visions, as this recent theory does, by trying to interpret John's vision against signs of the zodiac and other astrological hooey. Mixing divination with authentic prophecy doesn't make it any less divination, or any less of a folly.

[Bob434]

[[ use pagan astrology to interpret those visions, as this recent theory does, by trying to interpret John’s vision against signs of the zodiac and other astrological hooey.]]

Sorry boogieman:

The Maggi interpreted a sign in the heavens- God sent them a sign in the sky, and told them what it would mean- just like He did to John-

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
- Luke 21:25-27 in the King James Version of The Bible

Pagan astrology worships the stars- that’s a huge difference- When God gives a sign, and tells us what that sign will mean or suggests when that sign will appear- When he gave the sign in ancient times of the coming Christ He told where it would be- and guess what? He never specifically told them to look or interpret that either- the sign was given knowing the people were smart enough to figure out that God was speaking of an actual sign in the skies that is NOT pagan worship of the stars - try to conflate the 2 is hooey-

The knowledge of a coming event is neither good or evil- it is simply knowledge- claiming that Christiana practice evil by worshipping objects such as stars simply for knowing of a sign that shall appear is unbliblical and dishonest-

Can’t speak for others- but I’ve not set up alters to worship the stars in the crown of the woman- or the sun, or moon- nor do i intend to- I will however take it very seriously when God appears to be giving us signs to look for concerning future events- By the way- one of the signs that the end was near was that Israel would become a nation- it’s ridiculous to think that having done so- those who acknowledged it are pagans for ‘interpreting signs’
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Don’t conflate being given signs to pagan worship of stars- the two are not the same no more so than a Christian family celebrating Christmas by giving gifts is ‘celebrating paganism and worshiping the occult’ by having a Santa themed Christmas

Astrologers take the signs of movements and try to divine meaning when God never intended meaning- but when God gives signs- He clearly is giving meaning and tells us that that will mean already-

Again- We’re going to have to agree to disagree- You are clearly conflating two totally separate practices and trying to make the one seem that it is practicing the rituals and paganism of the other-

[[There’s no “rapture” until the tribulation is over anyway.]]

Hmmm- another point of disagreement- Hopefully I’m not being pagan for believing in pre trib-

And by the way- there is nothing evil about divination- Daniel and many others divined all the time- They even divined dreams- another ‘pagan ritual’- yet they were without sin because they did NOT divine in such a way as to cajole meaning out of objects outside of God’s guidance- Big difference

Have a nice day

[Boogieman]

“The Maggi interpreted a sign in the heavens- God sent them a sign in the sky, and told them what it would mean- just like He did to John”

If God sent John a sign and told him what it would mean, then you wouldn’t need to be trying to match verses from Revelation with pagan astrology and interpreting it yourself. Not sure why you’re again posting a quote from LUKE when you keep talking about JOHN either.

“Pagan astrology worships the stars- that’s a huge difference-”

Not necessarily. Astrology is mainly just divination using the stars and heavenly bodies. Worshiping stars is not some integral part of it, but it is still forbidden by God.

“When God gives a sign, and tells us what that sign will mean or suggests when that sign will appear- When he gave the sign in ancient times of the coming Christ He told where it would be- and guess what? He never specifically told them to look or interpret that either- the sign was given knowing the people were smart enough to figure out that God was speaking of an actual sign in the skies that is NOT pagan worship of the stars - try to conflate the 2 is hooey-”

Got any actual Bible verses to back up your assertion that God “gave the sign in ancient times” and the Magi just decided on their own to interpret that sign according to astrology? The Bible only tells us that the Magi were following a star, there is no indication of why or how they got their information.

“claiming that Christiana practice evil by worshipping objects such as stars”

Never claimed that, you have tried to put those words in my mouth, but I never said it. I have simply been saying that trying to use astrology (divination) to interpret prophecy is improper, forbidden, and guaranteed to lead to false conclusions.

“Can’t speak for others- but I’ve not set up alters to worship the stars...”

Blah, blah, blah. More attempts to put words in my mouth to change the argument. Nobody has brought up “worshiping stars” here except you.

“By the way- one of the signs that the end was near was that Israel would become a nation”

Yes, and that’s a sign that can be recognized without trying to appeal to foolishness like astrology.

” it’s ridiculous to think that having done so- those who acknowledged it are pagans for ‘interpreting signs’”

It’s not simply about “interpreting signs”, it’s about resorting to pagan practices like astrology and divination in an attempt to interpret signs and misinterpreting the Bible in the process.

“Don’t conflate being given signs to pagan worship of stars.”

Again, you’re the only one talking about “worshiping stars” so if anyone is conflating that with something, it must be you.

“Astrologers take the signs of movements and try to divine meaning when God never intended meaning- but when God gives signs- He clearly is giving meaning and tells us that that will mean already”

Yet God never mentions the astrological constellation Virgo a single time in the verses about the “sign” that you are claiming He gave. So God didn’t tell you to interpret the verses in light of that, humans did. Humans conflated those verses with the work of pagan astrologers, not God.

“Hopefully I’m not being pagan for believing in pre trib”

No, just confused I would say.

“And by the way- there is nothing evil about divination”

Oh really? Then why does God condemn it in the Bible?:

“You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying.” Leviticus 19:26

“Thus says the LORD, “Do not learn the way of the nations, And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens Although the nations are terrified by them;” Jeremiah 10:2

“Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.” Jeremiah 14:14

“But as for you, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers or your sorcerers who speak to you, saying, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon.’” Jeremiah 27:9

And why does Paul cast a demon out of the slave girl who was practicing divination in Acts 16 even though she was proclaiming that Paul and his followers were servants of God and telling people to listen to them? If divination is “a-okay” when done for some holy purpose then the story in Acts 16 doesn’t make much sense.

The examples you give of “divination” are actually the work of prophets. They were not divining meaning from dreams, they were being told the meaning by God, not adopting the practices of pagans.