Posted on 03/01/2016 6:48:33 PM PST by truthfinder9
My point is that there is insufficient evidence based on Scripture alone to support either position.
Evangelical is a word Yankee Catholics and others in the media use to describe non Catholic Christian believers
It’s not a term we use to describe ourselves
Sure there is. I don't know ho w much clearer it can be stated.
It's already been shown from Scripture that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage.
Here are other Scriptures clearly stating that Jesus has brothers and sisters and the Greek words for brother and sister were clearly used.
Psalm69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
Strong's Concordance
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
adelphos: a brother
Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: adelphos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')
Short Definition: a brother
Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.
Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.
http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm
The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.
It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.
It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.
They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.
The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.
And it would not be *cousin*.
The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm
Strong's Concordance
suggenes: akin, a relative
Original Word: συγγενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: suggenes
Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')
Short Definition: akin, a relative
Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.
And it again raises the question of WHY it's so important that Mary be perpetually virgin?
The fact that she was a virgin when she conceived and bore a son is critical and irrefutable.
The need for her to be perpetually virgin is what exactly? God never required it. It was not prophesied.It doesn't affect her fulfilling prophesy, who Jesus is, or any other such thing related to salvation.
What's the need for her to be virgin?
Context is your key to understanding the Word!
There are several assumptions in the context you presented that are not found in Scripture. But you go ahead and believe what you want to believe. Fortunately, whether or not Mary had other sons, the salvation of our eternal souls is dependent only on the birth of Mary’s firstborn Son.
May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Rich
However, isn’t this something catholics “have” to believe? That she was a perpetual virgin.
Anymore, I’m not sure what Catholics have to believe under the current Pope.
Scriptures. Found on Baptism of the holy spirit. And fire, tounges, are Luke 11:13; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 10:44-46; 19:6
Pastor Bill am I leaving out anything?
I know all those things are mentioned.
I just don’t agree with the blanket statements that definitively links one to the other in the way the other poster claims.
He never provided one verse of substantiation to back up his comments and refused to read what I had posted.
Mark 16 also and I corinthians 14:1-4
What’s the need for her to be virgin?
Did you mean to ask what’s the need for her to be virgin after the birth of Jesus?
Yes. As I stated before, I know the need for her to be virgin to give birth to the Messiah.
After that, that prophecy had been fulfilled.
Her virginity was no longer necessary and played no role in fulfilling God’s plan.
Long as there is no foam involved.
Thank You, Pastor Bill.
Her virginity was no longer necessary and played no role in fulfilling God’s plan.
Prior to becoming part of this Religious Forum, I did not give much thought to the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity. If someone did not want to believe it, fine. I didn’t care one way or another. But as I looked at the discussions on this forum, I was struck by how weak the arguments were both for the doctrine and against the doctrine. The few references in Scripture were general in nature and subject to different interpretations.
These discussions prompted me to do some research on the origins of the belief. I found that Christians believed from early on that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. They believed that this was necessary to fulfill an Old Testament prophecy. From the very beginning, Christians believed that it was essential for every one of these prophesies to be fulfilled. This is illustrated in the Emmaus walk narrative found in Luke 20, in which Jesus, beginning with Moses and all the prophets, interpreted to Cleopas and his companion what referred to Him in all of Scriptures. These Christians believed that Mary’s perpetual virginity fulfilled the “This gate shall be shut” prophecy written in Ezekiel 44:2.
With few exceptions, this belief was affirmed from apostolic times. The early reformers also affirmed the belief. Although Calvin was less clear-cut. He cautioned against “impious speculation.”
I like this statement. Although it’s a doctrine of the Church, I still don’t think it’s worth much thought. If you don’t want to believe this thing about Mary, fine. My primary focus is on her Son.
Peace,
Rich
Russell Moore
Prior to entering the ministry, Moore was an aide to U. S. Congressman Gene Taylor (D-Miss), serving in various roles including as campaign communications director and press spokesman in Taylor’s 1992 campaign against Republican Paul Harvey.
On June 1, 2013, Moore became President of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, the Southern Baptist Convention’s official entity assigned to address social, moral, and ethical concerns. In this role, Moore leads the organization, which maintains offices in both Nashville and Washington, DC. in their advocacy efforts—addressing especially the issues of religious liberty, human dignity, family stability, and civil society.
Where is the OT prophecy requiring her to be a perpetual virgin?
I indeed baptize you with water unto
repentance. but he that cometh after
me is mightier than I, whose shoes I
am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize
you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:11 which was prophecy
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2: 3-4 which was prophecy fulfilled.
Where is the OT prophecy requiring her to be a perpetual virgin?
This comes from Gill’s Exposition of the Whole Bible. Please note that I am merely responding to your question. I neither defend nor disavow the following.
Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. Ezekiel 44:2
Some of the ancients have interpreted it of the Virgin Mary, by whom Christ came into this world in human nature, being born of her, a virgin, who had never known man, and as is thought never did after the birth of Christ; nor were any afterwards born of her; no man might come into the world by her, by that self-same way the incarnate God did, and for that reason. This sense is approved of, not only by Papists, but by many Protestant writers.
Copyright Statement
The New John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible Modernised and adapted for the computer by Larry Pierce of Online Bible. All Rightes Reserved, Larry Pierce, Winterbourne, Ontario. A printed copy of this work can be ordered from: The Baptist Standard Bearer, 1 Iron Oaks Dr, Paris, AR, 72855
Bibliography
Gill, John. “Commentary on Ezekiel 44:2”. “The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible”. “http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/view.cgi?bk=eze&ch=44";. 1999.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
It was the SPIRIT that caused the speaking of tongues... it never says that the infilling of of the spirit causes house shaking or wind or anything...
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