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To: damonw
I grew up attending a Church of Christ. I never heard the word “synecdoche” once in my whole life, while there.

Without reading the large amount of interesting text you have on your site concerning this, I surmise a reasonable amount of the debate was around “faith” and “works.”

In truth, faith without works, is dead. Can you be saved with no works? If a baby Christian (someone who likely had just accepted Christ) died, I would think that person would be in Heaven. If, however, someone had no works for some time after that, then that person would be up against what is in Scripture in James 2.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26&version=NKJV

It would be expected that one would grow and start evidencing Christ in their life. If they don't, then one would wonder if they ever truly accepted Christ into their hearts.

This is a difficult area to navigate in the Bible, as various references seem at odds with each other, but I don't believe this is necessarily true when walked through.

8 posted on 08/24/2015 8:57:16 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: ConservativeMind

Your most foundational and basic error of interpretation lies in thinking that James 2 is the go to place in scripture to clarify what salvation is. You and others that oppose salvation by faith alone seem to think James was teaching differently than Paul and the rest of scripture. But he is not. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and James was a Jew speaking to Jews. They were speaking to two different audiences and emphasizing two different types of Justification. Paul said Abraham was justified by faith and had nothing to boast about before God. He was showing justification before God. Yet James said “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18). He is speaking about justification before men. And both Paul and James agree and said that Abraham believed God and it was counted or credited to him as righteousness. To see the two different kind of justifications see (Rom 4:2) “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God”. If Abraham was justified by works, as James at first glance appears to assert he is, he can glory before men but not before God. Romans 3: 19-20 says “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” The law makes all men “guilty before God” and “in his sight”, but we can be seen as just to men by observing and keeping the law and doing good works. This has to be the true understanding of James2:24 because the scripture is clear in so many places that we are saved through faith and not by works. James cannot be speaking in contradiction to the rest of scripture.

I have to wonder about you guys who take James 2 and try to say we are also justified by works, I wonder if you guys would even do good works if you did not think they contribute to your salvation. Maybe you should do a study on rewards in the bible so you could see that faith is for salvation and works are for reward, not salvation – which is a gift from God.


20 posted on 08/25/2015 4:45:15 AM PDT by damonw
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To: ConservativeMind

**This is a difficult area to navigate in the Bible, as various references seem at odds with each other, ***

Difficult only till you realize who is speaking and to whom he his speaking.

PAUL was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Did not require the Gentiles to convert to Judaism before becoming Christian, did not require any of the Jewish rituals for Gentiles,(circumcision, Temple sacrifices), and preached Salvation without Works.

James, an apostle to the Circumcision, wrote to the TWELVE TRIBES SCATTERED ABROAD, and held all Jewish believers to the LAW. Was quick to show Paul how many people believed and “were zealous of the law!”. This included Pharisees who demanded Gentile circumcision, and Temple priests.

James even talked Paul into taking men with vows on their heads and paying for their sacrifices in the Temple to show the people that the things they had heard about Paul preaching against MOSES was not so. To him, salvation was by faith in Christ, AND continuation of the Jewish requirements.

Paul’s own words...Gal 2:2

And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Gal 2:3

But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Gal 2:4

And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 2:7

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Gal 2:8

(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Gal 2:9

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


32 posted on 08/25/2015 6:34:45 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Never trust anyone who promotes "sensible" gun control laws!)
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