Your most foundational and basic error of interpretation lies in thinking that James 2 is the go to place in scripture to clarify what salvation is. You and others that oppose salvation by faith alone seem to think James was teaching differently than Paul and the rest of scripture. But he is not. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and James was a Jew speaking to Jews. They were speaking to two different audiences and emphasizing two different types of Justification. Paul said Abraham was justified by faith and had nothing to boast about before God. He was showing justification before God. Yet James said “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18). He is speaking about justification before men. And both Paul and James agree and said that Abraham believed God and it was counted or credited to him as righteousness. To see the two different kind of justifications see (Rom 4:2) “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God”. If Abraham was justified by works, as James at first glance appears to assert he is, he can glory before men but not before God. Romans 3: 19-20 says “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” The law makes all men “guilty before God” and “in his sight”, but we can be seen as just to men by observing and keeping the law and doing good works. This has to be the true understanding of James2:24 because the scripture is clear in so many places that we are saved through faith and not by works. James cannot be speaking in contradiction to the rest of scripture.
I have to wonder about you guys who take James 2 and try to say we are also justified by works, I wonder if you guys would even do good works if you did not think they contribute to your salvation. Maybe you should do a study on rewards in the bible so you could see that faith is for salvation and works are for reward, not salvation – which is a gift from God.
It’s not ad hominem to call out the schoolyard bully for being s bully. You said yourself that you’re on a mission to attack the church.
You’re not interested in debate. So, what would be the point of debating you. Your small minded behavior IS the only point of rebuttal.
I find it quite ironic that the guy who yesterday stated that his chief complaint was the coC believes only it can be saved deems himself judge, jury, and eternal executioner on the church.
Pot:kettle.
It seems someone has decided that works=works=works. So no matter how the Bible writers use the word, it always means the same thing. This is a common error made by those who go to the Bible to prove what they believe, rather than going to it to learn what God says.
There’s “works”...and then there’s “works”. There are works done in faith and inseparable from it (Heb. 11, James. 2, etc.) And there are works (Titus 3, Romans, etc.) that are in opposition to faith, seeking justification without faith. Which one will the servant of Christ do?
The faith that obeys is the faith that saves. Any other “faith” is a fake.
Faith and obedience are inseparable. You might as well try to separate the body from the spirit as to separate faith from obedience. The result either way is something dead.
Why was Abraham justified by works? Because he worked in faith.
Why was Abraham justified by faith? Because his faith worked in his works of obedience.
Will we be like Abraham, Enoch, Noah, and Rahab, with obedient faith? Or like those who claim to have faith but refuse to submit as servants to the Master’s commands?
Interesting. I said I had no problem with a baby Christian being saved, even if they had no fruit. How much more can you get on “saved by faith,” than that? Isn’t that what you believe?
Let’s move forward a bit in time. Someone accepts Christ and then proceeds to murder a bunch of people. There was not a single person to attest to this man’s fruit. Is this person saved or not?
I would contend that it is possible, but not assured, this mass murderer was saved. As someone who is saved is expected to show fruit in time, it would surely be something questionable with those who knew him when he accepted Christ.
Let’s take this a step further. If this man was thought to be likely to have murdered, but was only under suspicion, would you let this person babysit your kids? I mean, he’s as solid a Christian as you in every way, because according to you, fruits don’t ever need to be manifested. We are to trust our fellow Christians and provide forbearance, so any attempt to determine where one is with God, as long as that person said he accepted Christ, is moot, in your eyes.
The truth is that no one knows who is surely saved and who isn’t—only God knows. We can catalog those who have claimed to have accepted Christ and hold these people to Christian standards, but if someone did not accept Christ and lied that he had, surely it is wrong to say that person is saved when you can’t possibly know. Especially if no fruits were ever shown.
We move forward in life as Christians trying to do as best we can. This will also mean we assume others believe in Christ who say they do and we will help them, and others, accordingly. These we do for our own walk in Christ, however. What I do and how I respond is on me and me alone. I cannot save anyone, but I can help others to be saved. In the end, their salvation is on them as it is on me. God wills all be saved, but God does not always get what He wills.
If you believe someone is saved, yet you do not trust them from their works and words, how are you not denying God and the Holy Spirit within that person as being exactly what God wanted them to be while with you? Sure, you may think it unwise to trust someone who shows they can’t be trusted, but according to you, all that should matter is whether they are truly saved or not, and to you, that simply means minimal lip service. After that, by what right do you have to oppose your Christian brother, right? It could be you that is less safe to babysit your own children than this mass murderer, after all (in your world).
We are all equal in the eyes of God once we accepted Christ. To think otherwise is heresy. According to you, we have no right to view fruits or actions to either determine if one is with Christ or not—we have only their word.
Again, only God knows the truth. All we can do is be as Christ-like as possible while on Earth.
We have to accept Christ to be saved. God expects something good to come from us as God ensures we all get a gift from the Holy Spirit to use to help glorify Him. We expect something good to come from people who are Christians to help us understand their walk with God. These actions do not save anyone by themselves, though.