Why I'm a Catholic. Sola Scriptura isn't Workable, Part II

Apologia ^ | June 2015 | Ken Hensley

[Salvation]

Thank you for posting this. It was my next post. (Just the Bible part.)

[Salvation]

 

John 20

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

[BipolarBob]

You believe in Scripture, correct? Then why don't you believe this? John 21: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.

I don't think anyone is doubting the veracity of this text as long as it is used in context. Just what is it of the things which Jesus did, that were not recorded, that you wish to comment on?

[Kandy Atz]

The “pastor” would get answers to his concerns if he would set aside the theological groupthink, and simply turn to God’s Word, allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal it to his spirit.

I find it amusing that he admits the fallibility of man, and yet looks to a denomination, filled with fallible men, instead of the Living Word of God. Why not go directly to the Source?

Psalm 119:130 (KJV)
130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

God’s Word, His Truth, is meant to be read and understood by any BELIEVER.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

[Mercat]

I guess I don’t understand why I should “look” to you or to Martin Luther or to any other interpreter of the Bible using your logic. My interpretation through my relationship with the Holy Spirit makes me very happy to be a Catholic.

[Kandy Atz]

I guess I don’t understand why I should “look” to you or to Martin Luther or to any other interpreter of the Bible using your logic. My interpretation through my relationship with the Holy Spirit makes me very happy to be a Catholic.

Who said anything about looking to me or Luther? Don't look to ANY man, or the religion he invents! When people rely on the interpretation of men, placing their religious ideas above God's Word, things go catawampus. How many millions have been persecuted, tortured, and murdered simply because they had a different understanding of the Word than the religious folks that were in power at that time. THAT is why you stay away from what man thinks and stick with GOD's TRUTH.

The Word speaks for itself. Scripture interprets Scripture. And if the Holy Spirit truly dwells in you, He will guide you and reveal God's Word to your spirit. The BIBLE IS NOT JUST SOME BOOK ON THE SHELF. It is the Living Word of God, full of Revelation, Wisdom, and Truth. And its certainly not the invention of man or religion.

[Campion]

The apostles repeatedly say to read their letters and stick to what they said and wrote.

Which is fine advice! But they also say to hold fast to the traditions they taught, whether by letter or by word of mouth (2 Thess 2:15), and they say that the men they ordain have the authority and power to teach (2 Tm 2:2) and that they are to be obeyed (Heb 13:7, 17) and that Scripture can be hard to understand and can be easily misunderstood by the "ignorant and unstable" (2 Pt 3:16).

Sola scriptura fails to "stick fast" to that.

[BipolarBob]

hold fast to the traditions they taught, whether by letter or by word of mouth (2 Thess 2:15)
Everything we need to know is recorded. They are long dead.
the men they ordain have the authority and power to teach (2 Tm 2:2) They are dead, killed and persecuted.
Scripture can be hard to understand and can be easily misunderstood by the "ignorant and unstable" (2 Pt 3:16).
That would be the willingly ignorant and unstable. Unless you are self-describing your own condition, the Scriptures were written for all to understand. You seem to be fragmenting and cherry picking Scripture to boost your bias which would be a perversion of Gods Word and purpose.

[ealgeone]

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book.

The catholic carte blanch card! Don't leave home without it.

[Tao Yin]

But [the apostles] also say to hold fast to the traditions they taught, whether by letter or by word of mouth (2 Thess 2:15),

I hold fast to the teachings of the apostles. I have their letters, given from them to the churches. Read in the churches since the beginning. This is a sure testament.

Why should I put faith in something that someone said the apostles said? If the letters of the apostles didn't contain everything that we needed to know, why didn't the early Christians write it down?

Please tell me something that I need to believe that isn't in the Bible that you believe the apostles taught.

and they say that the men they ordain have the authority and power to teach (2 Tm 2:2)

"And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well."

There is a big difference between ability and authority. For oral tradition, there is a restriction that many witnesses are required. A single person can not say that the apostles taught them something.

and that they are to be obeyed (Heb 13:7, 17)

Do you even read the verses you quote? Heb 13:7 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

How are we to know that they have spoken the word of God? The only sure word of God is from scripture. If I listen to a priest teach, the only word of God that he has spoken comes from scripture.

Heb 13:17, Obey your leaders and submit to them. Yes. Our leaders are those who speak the word of God(v7). But don't get the order confused. They do not speak the word of God because they are our leaders, but rather they are our leaders because they speak the word of God. We are servants of the word, not servants of our leader. If our leader does not speak the word of God, he is to be reproached and then removed if he doesn't repent. We do not owe mindless obedience to someone who it not speaking the word of God.

and that Scripture can be hard to understand and can be easily misunderstood by the "ignorant and unstable" (2 Pt 3:16).

Scripture is not hard to understand. Misquote much? There are some things(v16) in Paul's letters that are hard to understand. Because some things are hard to understand, have patience(v15), don't get carried away by error(v17), grow in grace and knowledge(v18). Nothing about mindless submission.

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

Holy Tradition is also God’s word

Nope. Tradition is simply tradition. The Jews at the time of Jesus had a lot of traditions, many of which were good, but some which contradicted God's word and for which Jesus corrected them for:

Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matt 5:3)

Paul also tells us in Colossians 2:7-9 to

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ"

Traditions can be useful in reminding us of God and our duty to Him. However they should never be made burdensome and never be made to contradict or overrule the Scripture itself.

[Salvation]

Are you looking at tradition as the things you might do every Christmas or Easter?

That’s not the tradition we are talking about here.

How did Paul know that Jesus had appeared to 500 people after his Resurrection? It is not in any Gospel.

There is also a quote of Paul’s quoting Jesus, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

But you will not find that in any Gospel either.

Holy Tradition is inspired by the Holy Spirit for one individual to speak the truth to another individual. How else did Paul find out about these things?

[BipolarBob]

Do you have any Holy Traditions you would like to share with us?

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

Traditions are created by men to remind us of God and/or our duty to Him. But since they are man-made, they are not holy. Only what comes from God himself is holy.

That said, yes, we do have our own traditions. On Shabbat we light the candles, do Kiddush, and break bread. God does not command these things to be done on Sabbath, but they do not go contrary to His word either. :-)

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

Traditions are just that; man’s creations. Scripture is God’s word to man. It is the readers duty to prayerfully interpret. (For you Catholics there is a “tradition” that St. Peter died in South Russia.) I don’t insist it is true but it does exist thus showing the worth of “traditions.”

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

I don't think I originally brought up the topic of tradition. Can't remember who did. I originally was talking about solo scriptura.

However if you would like to talk more about traditions, we can.

How did Paul know that Jesus had appeared to 500 people after his Resurrection?

He likely heard about it from the apostles, whom he often dialoged with. As a devout follower of messiah, he would have no doubt asked them often about their experiences with him.

There is also a quote of Paul’s quoting Jesus, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” But you will not find that in any Gospel either.

Not that direct quote perhaps, but it is likely that he either learned of that quote while discussing with the disciples or perhaps he was summarizing Jesus's point in this parable:

"Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”(Luke 14)

That fact that this particular quote was not listed in the Gospels is not altogether surprising. Summarizing His whole life and teaching would have been a very difficult thing. After all, John tells us that "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."(John 21) To learn further information about Jesus, one would have had to talk to his apostles and other close followers, as such a devout disciple as Paul surely did.

I do agree with you that the Holy Spirit can inspire people, and has often done so. However, all such inspiration or revelation or tradition must be tested against God's Word. If it goes contrary to God's word, then it is not inspired of God. As Malachi 3:6 says "I am the Lord, I do not change." And 1 John 4:1 instructs us "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

You also mentioned Christmas and Easter. Those are some very good examples of traditions that have not been tested against God's word, and that in fact go contrary to it. Those holidays have numerous roots on paganism, which you can read about further if you would like. These are just a couple suggested sites. You can do your own research too.

http://www.eliyah.com/paganexp.html

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm

Some people will say, "well maybe these things did have roots in paganism, but its not about that for us...we're doing it to worship God now." The problem with this is that God does not want to be worshiped using pagan traditions. He says so:

"be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates." (Deuteronomy 12)

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

there is a “tradition” that St. Peter died in South Russia

Another tradition says that Peter was crucified in Rome.

[BipolarBob]

God does not command these things to be done on Sabbath, but they do not go contrary to His word either. :-)

On what calendar day is the Sabbath, may I ask?

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

Can’t be in two places at once. So much for “traditions.”

[Semper Mark]

Written by men?

16 For we have not by following artificial fables, made known to you the power, and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ; but we were eyewitnesses of his greatness.

17 For he received from God the Father, honour and glory: this voice coming down to him from the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

18 And this voice we heard brought from heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:16-21 (Douay-Rheims)