CAUTION!! CHRISTIAN BASHING THREAD!!
Al ‘the Rev’ Sharpton says Mormons are not Christian.
-Sycophants and devout holier-than-thou judges agree.-
Posted on 04/03/2015 5:33:16 AM PDT by Colofornian
In 2007, Bryan Hall was almost finished filming his documentary, Us and Them: Religious Rivalry in America. He still didn't know how to end the film. A devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the now-42-year-old from Orem, thought about the protesters on Temple Square. He finally said, "Let's go talk to those crazy street preachers."
There he met the outspoken leader of the street preachers, Ruben Israel, a 53-year-old Whittier, Calif., native who travels around the country to preach the Bible to whomever will listen.
Looking back, Hall recalls, "I imagined two scenarios: One would be a huge argument, which would still work for the ending of the film. But in my heart, I knew it wouldn't be that way. I thought the best ending is one where we can resolve this ridiculousness."
Are you and have you always been active LDS?
Always, and still am. Returned missionary, married in the temple, the works.
What made you cross the line and talk to Ruben Israel?
I had misinterpreted the direction from the pulpit as "Don't ever talk to them," when actually it was "Don't engage in an argument with them." Nevertheless, most Mormons receive that message, which is more heavily weighted, as "Don't talk to them at all." I would be lying if I said I was overly concerned about what was preached from the pulpit the day I went and talked to him. I didn't feel good about my own despising of the conference protesters and having this constant feeling [of contempt] every time I thought of them.
Something was wrong with that outlook, and I thought the only way forward was to confront it. I felt nervous, but also had a certain resolve in that I recognized a tough solution that might bring me peace. When you anticipate the peace, it fuels your courage to go on.
I deeply desired to fix this problem, particularly with Ruben. He, in particular, made me the most angry, and therefore I just knew I had to talk to him. I went up to him and said, "You don't know me, but I've hated you and your people for a long time. I have come to try to fix that today and try to get to know you. I wondered if I could buy you lunch, so we can just talk. He said, "Of course."
What was that first lunch like?
It was fantastic. It was that moment in life when you are in high school or junior high and that one boy or girl who you swear is your mortal enemy becomes your best friend. Only I was 34 years old. Ruben was staying in town with half a dozen other people. One of the other street preachers was on a list to get roadkill, and he said, "God has blessed us with a huge elk that was hit on the freeway." They had skinned it and carved it and were going to have a big feast [later that night]. So, my film crew and I met with everyone, and they were feeding us this roadkill elk that was hit earlier in the morning in Parley's Canyon.
It was so unlike anything I do in my normal life that it broke the ice between us 100 times over. They got a kick out of us eating the elk, and we really began to humanize each other. We talked long into the night. We left their place at 1:30 in the morning, talking about how much we had enjoyed hanging out with them, especially Ruben. There were a few moments when it could have gone south, because some of them had bad feelings toward Mormons, and it took a little courage to not engage and not worry about that.
For Ruben, street preaching was trying to preach Jesus in his way, and he didn't seem to have any baggage with that. As a group of people, they were extremely kind. I got to understand them better as fringe members of society, not just as religious people. One of them lived in a rundown place, and we were eating roadkill, and I went from hating them to feeling sorry for them.
Do you find any overlap between your beliefs? Absolutely. One message that struck me was when he said these words: "If Joseph Smith were alive today, he would be out on the street preaching with me. His entire life embodied the rejection of traditional religion for the sake of a message that was extremely controversial. I disagree with his doctrine, but love that he was willing to take a bullet for his beliefs."
I'd never thought of it that way. The current leadership is very safe. They send messages from behind their desks, from behind a pulpit. They are liked in the world and in the community.
With [LDS Church founder] Joseph Smith, it was different. From a very young age, he was completely at odds with established religion. Street preaching is what the prophets of the Bible did, and that is what Ruben and other street preachers are trying to do.
It was so disruptive in my mind that he was revering Joseph Smith. It made me wonder, then, who am I to say that Ruben is doing something wrong?
Have you ever got him to go to church with you?
Oh, yes. I've invited him, but he lives in California and is only here on conference weekend. One funny story happened regarding Proposition 8 [banning same-sex marriage]. I get a call from Ruben saying he woke up that morning and saw on the news that a group of people was gathering at the Los Angeles Temple in the fall of 2008. This was immediately following the election where Prop 8 was supported in California prior to the courts overturning it.
So with the street preachers being very in favor of traditional marriage, about 30 of them “Street preaching is a way that God has used to communicate.” — Ruben Israel thought they owed the Mormons one and placed themselves between the gates and the crowds at the temple. He said, "I need you to call whoever you need to call, because all of the people who are in the temple today must be afraid to come out. You need to let them know that we are here and they can drive their cars and come out." (The street preachers didn't know that the temple wasn't open on Sunday.)
Your enemies might not always be your enemies.
A few different times, when Ruben has come to Salt Lake City on a Friday night [before conference weekend], he has arrived early enough for me to have dinner with him. I have held small gatherings to have people from my ward meet him. I have talked to his wife on the phone. He does have a congregation in Los Angeles, but his church really is on the street. My film company helped make music for his website. We have become friends.
Do you feel that there are two people—the person who is your friend and the person who protests?
No. This is the most important thing. We view them as protesters. They are street preachers. They don't want to be called protesters. They view themselves as street preachers, and this is their entire ministry. They view themselves as speaking God's word and they go where the crowds are. They aren't here to protest Mormons; they are here to preach to Mormons.
I disagree with their tactics. I think they are ineffective. I've told Ruben this. It's a challenge even for the people they do get to stop and listen. The negativity and feeling like they are being yelled at causes such a deep divide and negative experience. I told him that from a marketing standpoint. I love him and am not offended by it.
How do people react to him when he's preaching? He's been spit upon, had urine thrown on him. He's a big guy in a big group. But they have pretty sophisticated tactics for protecting themselves. They make sure to have someone filming all the time to protect themselves. They are much more organized and sophisticated than you think. They are intentionally presenting themselves as a ragtag group of chaotic idiots, but they leave with a number of contacts to send Bibles to. In their minds, they feel like they are getting through. They joke that they are part of the body of Christ, and they just might be the armpit.
Has anything he said to you changed you?
I grew up believing that these people were inherently evil and part of Satan's host. I know now that it is definitely not the case. My friendship with him has liberated me from a false idea that they were evil, or that they were fighting against God's will. I know that this not the case. I know they are preaching their message. Having that belief is a lot healthier than believing they are part of Satan's army. He doesn't make a lot of money. Every ounce of money he makes, he puts into his ministry. He and his wife have lived a very modest life. He graduated a kid from UCLA. He has raised a family and spends all of his extra money on this message. He believes that when he dies, he will be rewarded for his sacrifice.
Do you respect his convictions?
I do respect his convictions. I only think that his actions are not effective. When you consider the cost of the bad blood that it tends to brew between him and opposing religions, I don't think it's effective. I actually do respect his beliefs as much as I respect my own. I think Jesus calls me to do that.
Has there ever been a falling-out in your friendship?
Once we got through the first part, nothing else was shocking. I do believe I have had an effect in one area: Ruben has these gimmicks. He drilled a hole through a Book of Mormon and dragged it around. I told him we are not like Muslims in this regard. It's just a piece of paper.
Also, through some backchannel means, he got some garments from an ex-Mormon. He tied them on a stick and was waving them around. Unfortunately for him, it just looked like a white cloth, and people didn't notice. It looked like a surrender flag.
It would stir so much hate. He said, "That is just your crazy underwear." I told him the garments are something very sacred, and we don't reveal the oath and covenant. Mormons are a very conservative, modest people. It's like asking an Amish person to buy an iPhone. I have noticed that he always shares the banners and stuff that they create for each event, but since we had that conversation, he's never brought up the garments.
What happens when you get together?
During conference time, Ruben and I regularly meet, and then each go in our own directions. [Israel goes to street preach or protest, and Hall goes to conference.] Because my father-inlaw is a stake president, we usually have some kind of tickets. We usually have time to spend with the family or Ruben, then we go our separate ways and meet up afterwards.
He usually arrives on Friday and leaves on Monday morning. He'll stay at our house and get up very early to meet up with other friends who have traveled in. They'll go and stake out the ground at about 5 a.m. Especially when the weather is bad, we do try to organize to bring them breakfast or lunch, so they can keep their place. We'll coordinate efforts to drop off hot chocolate or donuts or lunch to them. Sometimes we just shower them with a bunch of food.
He has definitely had more conversations since the movie came out. It's more effective to have a movie that shows you as a lovable, big teddy bear. In New York, on my mission, I did street preaching, and you would make contacts and get way more traction that way. I can't deny that method works. I still think he could do his preaching and just not be as abrasive and be way more effective.
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What was it like when Bryan Hall approached you for the first time?
Most Mormons are obedient, and when they are told to leave the conference, they don't look at us or talk to us. It turned out that Bryan stepped out in faith. He made the initial contact. I'm sure he was a little bit nervous. He looked a bit intimidated. He asked a handful of questions, and then lots of things were happening around us, so he asked me to come out for lunch.
I know that Mormons are told not to make any contact, so it was rare for someone to approach me like that. Because it was rare, I decided to spend some quality time with him.
That night, I invited him to dinner at a place where we were staying. He brought drinks or something—I know he didn't come empty-handed. We forgot about the camera and the sound system and just talked to each other.
Now, I see him every time I am in Salt Lake City. One of the interesting things about his film is that he showed a different side of me. Some of the Mormons at his church gave him a hard time because it humanized me instead of making me look like a monster. He took it on a leap of faith.
We talk regularly. I'm a Lakers fan, and he's a Jazz fan. He'll call me and talk about how the Jazz beat the Lakers. We do more than just argue about religion and politics.
What props do you use when you preach?
One year, I drilled a hole through a Book of Mormon and dragged it on the floor for the three days I was there. Only one little old lady had the courage to say, "Please don't drag my holy book." I'm one of those guys who waves the Mormon underwear. I believe that the underwear that Mormons consider sacred—according to Mormon founders, it was supposed to be all the way to your wrists and ankles and neck—and that was considered sacred. With Mormons today, it's like most stuff: They've modified it. I want to say, if you're angry with me for waving it, your church has mangled it. Some things that took place in the temple used to take several hours, and now they take about an hour and a half. They've mangled a lot of things. The founders believed in having multiple wives. Why don't Mormons have multiple wives now? I don't think Mormons believe in the Book of Mormon. The Mormon church has become a business.
Have you met other Mormons at Hall's house?
We try to work out times when Bryan is home, and put aside one day for Q & A. Mormons can come there and pick my brain. They ask me questions like, "Who supports you?" and a gazillion other questions they might be ashamed to ask on the street. It's not a problem for me. I go to college campuses and preach and take question after question. I have nothing to hide. I'm not going to plead the Fifth and not answer. My whole purpose is to talk. Since Bryan's film, you will be surprised how many Mormons come up and talk to me. They give me prayer requests, and ask me to pray for certain people. Much of that was the foundation of a man [Hall] who stepped out in faith, in what might be termed disobedience, but was actually something much better than that.
What about Mormons and street preaching?
What we've done is very biblical. I told Bryan, do you know that you have a street preacher in the Book of Mormon? There is a picture of a person standing on a wall with a light. That is a an who was preaching. It caught him off guard. Street preaching is a way that God has used to communicate. If you have a newspaper or a radio station, you have to buy it. If you have a church, people have to go inside. I raise the voice to stir up conversation. I just simply read the Bible and was inspired at age 18. I've been doing it for 35 years. Away from this, I live a regular life, have a normal family, take the trash out and walk my dog. Then, when it comes time, I convey God's message.
Speaking of funding, how are you supported? How does your ministry receive offerings?
I own a business, and so that's primarily how I do most of my travel. However on my website, OfficialStreetPreacher.com, there is a donation window. We are not a 501(c)(3), so I'm not married to the state, because I do partake in preaching against politics.
What congregation are you affiliated with?
It is a nondenominational group called Bible Believers. That is the actual church started in the Bible, so we are just going back to the roots of Christianity. That is why meeting in homes is paramount to us. At home churches, we pick up a lot of people who, over the years, have been spiritually and physically abused by churches. We are like their last resort before they throw in the towel on Christianity. They feel more comfortable in a living room than on a pew. We'll also even welcome Mormons.
Church is good, but having faith in Jesus Christ and staying with the Bible is what God wants. We have home churches and home Bible studies. We network across the United States.
Where would someone go if they feel called to be a street preacher?
All they would have to do is look at my website, let me know what city or state they are in, and I would recommend them to a group or an individual in that location.
What it is like when you come to Salt Lake City and visit Bryan?
I'll stay at his house and have breakfast. On the days I preach, I'm gone by 5:30 or 6 in the morning, and I don't get back until 8:30 at night. He brings food to me. He'll even bring me coffee. Can you believe a Mormon bringing caffeine? I might see him at conference, and we might say a few things to each other. We're almost like Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner. We sometimes go at each other, then we clock out and are friends again. At his house, I'm like any other guest. He would give me the keys to his house, and the key to his car. When I'm one, I'll play pool.
One thing you did align with the Mormon church on was your support of California's Prop 8?
I went to Conference at the time of Proposition 8 and thanked the church for promoting Proposition 8. I give credit where credit is due. I'm in favor of traditional marriage.
Have you also come to Utah to preach during the Utah Pride Festival?
Yes, I have, as a matter of fact, I go back to when they had a permit to walk from a local park on a residential street, to now when the parade route goes all the way up to Brigham Young's home and then they make a U-turn and then finish their route at the City & County Building. It's a lifestyle that God considers an abomination and reprobate. It's a sin that has crept into Christianity and has now invaded Mormonism. I just hope to preach God's standard to homosexuals. If Salt Lake City hosted an adultery pride parade or a fornication pride parade or a masturbation pride parade, we would be there, too. Those are only an invitation for someone like me to be there.
How often do you preach?
Several times a month. I fly out of Los Angeles to Phoenix, to Washington, DC. I travel all over the nation to different events where I meet with very active Christians and we preach a standard against whatever event is happening. If somebody wishes to give a message to the Mormon church, conference would be the time to do it, which is why I come. In Los Angeles, there is a lot of Hollywood type stuff, movie awards, Hollywood Boulevard, Beverly Hills, college campuses, beaches and book signings—just to name a few
Do you have a day job?
For over 25 years, I have been a contractor.
How large is your family? How many mouths do you have to feed?
Right now, it is just my wife and me because our son and daughter have grown up and are now productive citizens.
Does your family understand your need to travel?
Yes, they do. They would have to be understanding, being married to me. That would be like Obama's daughters not being active in being an American. This is the way of life, and personally, we don't know of Christianity any other way. After 35 years, it is like breathing. They know if they don't see me in person, they can watch me on the local news somewhere in America.
Do you hope to convert people?
Oftentimes, we don't see the conversion. Somebody else gets the conversion. That's the way Christianity works. My job is just being faithful to my job, to plant seed, water seed and hope that somebody else gets that harvest.
What do you believe yourself?
That the Bible is the word of God.
How do Mormons respond to your message?
Most have been very nice. During conference, when we go to lunch and dinner, there are Mormons who approach us and say they would like to buy our meal and sit down and talk.
The worst beatings I've ever got have been from Jews and Muslims. Catholics have been known to whip us with the rosary beads when we speak against the Vatican and the Pope.
There are lots of police around us. I've been punched more times than I can remember, jailed more times than I can remember. It's just part of the deal. If they did it to Jesus, it's not going to be any different for me. People are not going to like you for what you have to say. The day I start doing this so people will like me is the day I hang up my megaphone.
What would you say to Mormons and others who read this story?
Learn a lesson from Bryan and come on out and spend some time.
In that work, JF Smith twice outlined the key mandates of an Lds missionary: In both volumes 1 and 4, Joseph Fielding Smith cited the same Lds Doctrines & Covenant passage: 88:81-82:
"Behold, I sent you out to testify and
WARN the people, and it becometh every man who hath been
WARNED to WARN his neighbor.
Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads.
Joseph Fielding Smith then, after citing these verses in volumes 1 and 4, mentioned the following:
"This commission to go forth which was given in the beginning is still in force and binding on every missionary who goes forth today to declare the gospel of salvation in the world." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. I, p. 134, 1957/1979)
And:
"...there are certain commandments missionaries should remember...they are sent not only to preach and bear testimony and bring people to repentance...but to WARN ALL men..." (Vol. 4, p. 55 1963/1979)
Beloved Lds, do you know what I took away from reading Joseph Fielding Smith here? What I took away is that -- to partially quote one former Freeper who is Lds -- I'm glad to live in a country where your Lds missionaries are free to warn others as they see fit.
Well, guess what that means? Has it dawned on you yet, that there was a second sentence to that comment that mutually applies?
Would Mormons actually agree with the second half of that statement? Would they "amen" me if I said -- again to "parallel" that comment?: I'm also glad to be a member of my church and worship as I see fit -- and that includes the freedom for myself, other posters, and street preachers like Ruben Israel to engage in an exchange of mutual warning with my neighbors, the Mormons.
Lds wouldn't begrudge others the same freedom extended to Lds missionaries, would they? Joseph Fielding Smith said the very essence -- the commission and commandments -- of an Lds missionary is to warn all men. Right?
There is such a thing as an "allowance" for mutual warnings being exchanged. And it can be done in a civil manner, as Israel and Bryan Hall have shown.
A friend of ours has an OK from the New Mexico game and fish commission to pick up and use fresh road killed deer.
I’ve often eaten it and it is good.
she is not a mormon.
In my experience as a member and now as not a member, SLC admonishes her flock to not interact so as not to be exposed to teachings or materials that are “not faith promoting”.
IOW, if it doesn’t come from SLC, it is to be avoided...the messengers (street preachers, etc.) are as well. Characterized as “anti-Mormon” (against the people) vs. anti-MormonISM (against the doctrine).
It goes a long way in keeping the faithful in line.
CAUTION!! CHRISTIAN BASHING THREAD!!Al ‘the Rev’ Sharpton says Mormons are not Christian.
-Sycophants and devout holier-than-thou judges agree.-
Golly!
My book says (and it's in the one that Mormons can use, too)
Jude 1:3 King James Bible
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Golly!
It's working out this way on FR as well!
Poor, ol' laotzu .
Can ALWAYS spot BASHING of Mormonism; but NEVER adds anything of value to the thread.
And NEVER seems to notice MORMONs bashing ALL of Christianity...
Some Mormons undoubtedly become Christians, and eventually leave the Mormon sect they were members of, behind.
(Thanks to delacort for compiling this list)
(said Laotzu, with a subtle finger pointed back at him at how “holier than thou” he is than anybody who dares mention that Mormonism is not Christianity)
Yes.
It...
1. Keeps the 'faithful' in line
2. As the article points out (Mormon Bryan Hall), it keeps you from "humanizing" those Mormon who "hate" street-preacher "enemies" (and Hall admitted he both "hated" -- and "hated" Ruben Israel the most until they became friends)
I've pointed out MANY times on these FR threads what the apostle Paul reminded the Ephesians:
"our struggle is not against flesh and blood..." (Eph. 6:12)
The Mormon is not our enemy, and Szonian, you see that firsthand with family friends & relatives who are Lds.
Our struggle is not against Mormons. (After all, some former Mormons and former-Mormons-to-be are joining the great Heavenly parade!)
But we do contend (Jude 3) vs. those systems & the demons behind them that militate vs. "the faith once delivered" (for all time) "to the saints" of Jude's day.
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