Why Church History Always Matters

Place For Truth ^ | March 17, 2015 | Michael Roberts

[Elsie]

The flip side.

[Gamecock]

Buck up! There are 7,000 more!

[CynicalBear]

Verily I say they have their reward.

[paladinan]

The flip side.

:) Er... given your posts, FRiend, I'd say "The Far Side"...

[Syncro]

My cricket collection is growing, they are eating me out of house and home!

[boatbums]

Those people of faith who came before us are examples to us and reminders of the grace of God and His working through mankind for not only their benefit but the benefit of those who would come after them. We learn patience through suffering and, if we are wise, we will learn it by seeing the patience of those who preceded us and how God was ALWAYS faithful.

Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy. (James 5:9-11)

We are then to be examples to those who come after us as Titus chapter 5 exhorts:

You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

[boatbums]

Winston Churchill prophetically said: “history is written by the victors.” I think we can see evidence of that even within Christianity.

[boatbums]

The historicity of one’s “Christian Faith” means little if that “Faith” is not based on the Truth of Jesus Christ and Him alone. The rest is for show and bluster

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we agree!! but if one has a “faith” other than that believed and confessed for 2,000 years, it is not the Catholic Faith. small c or Capital C.

Except your "Catholic" faith - as it exists today - is NOT the faith that has been believed and confessed for nearly 2000 years. The faith that the "Apostle's Creed" represents can be cited as well as believed by Christians who are NOT Roman Catholic. This is why the nonsense spurted about Gamecock needing to announce to those standing in the cathedral reciting the AC that "there were no Christians until 480 years ago." is as idiotic as it is untrue. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were desperately trying to sow discord - AGAIN.

The article in this thread was saying something that should not have caused an RC knee-jerk reaction to a thread NOT posted by a Roman Catholic on the Religion Forum, seeing as it said something ALL Christians can agree on. What's wrong? Couldn't find anything else to spice up your weekend?

[boatbums]

They (the PCUSA, who have been reviled by many non-Catholics on this forum) adhere to "sola Scriptura" and "sola fide". And they approve of abortion, so-called "gay marriage", and other sundry items. By Evangelical Protestant (and similar) reasoning, this means that the members of the PCUSA who profess faith in Jesus are all saved (despite supporting child murder, sodomy, etc.), and they've all been led by the Holy Spirit to correct interpretations of Scripture, as the Bible supposedly [according to some on this forum] promised that they would be.

I'd bet we could find just as many Roman Catholics who approve of abortion, so-called "gay marriage", and other sundry items. By Roman Catholic (and similar) reasoning, this means that the members of the RCC who have been baptized and profess faith in Jesus and do all the sacraments/rituals they are commanded to do are all saved (despite supporting child murder, sodomy, etc.), and the Magesterium has been led by the Holy Spirit to correct interpretations of Scripture, as the Bible supposedly promised that they would be.

See how easy that was?

[Elsie]

:) Er... given your posts, FRiend, I'd say "The Far Side"...

Welcome to the Midvale School of Theology!

Our doors are ALWAYS open to those wishing learn more.

Check out our advanced degrees for those who have been previously labeled 'poorly catechized'.

Our teaching Methods may seem a bit unorthodox; but we guarantee that you will not be disappointed with our Results.

[Resettozero]

The past week on FR, RCs have flowed in like a flood, invigorated in defending their 2,000 year-old faith against the truth.

(I say it’s between 4,000 and 6,000 years old.)

[RnMomof7]

:>)

[Elsie]

Guess who .........

[paladinan]

I'd bet we could find just as many Roman Catholics who approve of abortion, so-called "gay marriage", and other sundry items.

Sadly, that's true... but there remains one critical difference: there's a single, unified, objective standard by which we can tell the faithful apart from the dissenters (i.e. the teaching of the Catholic Church). A simple glance through the Catechism will show that those who support abortion, so-called "gay marriage", and other evils are supporting things condemned by the Catholic Church... no matter how much the dissenters might "bleat" to the contrary.

Now, compare that to the Presbyterians (a.k.a. "the split P's"). They both appeal to "the Bible alone" as their sole arbiter and norm of spiritual truth... for all the good that did them. Their case is not a case of "internal dissenters" who are provably in rebellion against their faith group (as is the case with Catholic dissenters); in the Presbyterians' case, the individuals who embrace those evils are FOLLOWING (or at least agreeing with) their group's beliefs. Where do we see the PCUSA condemning its members who support abortion, or "gay marriage", etc.? Nowhere.

Such is the fruit of "sola Scriptura": not only do you have fragmentation, but the fragments are all insisting that THEY have the true interpretation of the "Bible alone"... and no "sola Scriptura" believer can do anything but offer his/her personal interpretation/opinion when trying to oppose them.

By Roman Catholic (and similar) reasoning, this means that the members of the RCC who have been baptized and profess faith in Jesus and do all the sacraments/rituals they are commanded to do are all saved (despite supporting child murder, sodomy, etc.), and the Magesterium has been led by the Holy Spirit to correct interpretations of Scripture, as the Bible supposedly promised that they would be.

You're getting muddled, here. Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that any given person is "saved" in the Protestant "once-saved-always-saved" sense; that's the province of your group, not mine. Catholics who knowingly and willfully reject the teaching of the Church (which is of a piece with Scripture), and who sin gravely when doing so (or in addition to it), will be damned when they die (unless they repent, first). Baptism saves, and it keeps the gates of salvation open until death (especially by giving access to the Sacrament of Confession), but it does not crush free will; those who rebel are free to rebel, and to be lost, no matter how many Sacraments they've received. Sacraments are great helps, but they're useless to one who throws them away or scorns them.

See how easy that was?

:) Hm. One might say, "Too easy to be true!"

[paladinan]

I prefer coherence and logic, myself, Elsie... but thanks for the offer, nonetheless! :)

[Elsie]

I’ll keep this in mind...

[Elsie]

... (i.e. the teaching of the Catholic Church).

Ah...

...I see.

---

"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours." — Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. — Vatican 1, Ses. 4, Cp. 1

[Elsie]

I prefer coherence and logic, myself

O...
K...

Baptism saves, and it keeps the gates of salvation open until death...

[paladinan]

So... what’s your point with those quotes?

[Elsie]

Church teachings...