Early Church Evidence Refutes Real Presence

One Fold ^ | March 11,2015 | unknown

[Zeneta]

There’s something to be said about reading and re-reading concepts that your audience already accepts.

I’m not suggesting the need to be provocative, but a thoughtful and systematic process that introduces others that are looking for the truth.

There’s one thing that I know about TRUTH in our modern culture.

It is NOT accepted from Authority.

[Mad Dawg]

CB: when the writer, early in his "argument" presents as fact what is false opinion, then "intelligent people," will "investigate what the truth is" in other sources.

Less than a quarter of an hour with the Summa would have shown him that we don't claim what he says we claim. He couldn't (or wouldn't) give 15 more minutes to make sure his charges were accurate.

I don't even have to go into differing ways of reading the Fathers, or into my own thoughts about how theology stumbles, willy-nilly, into poetry -- rich in layered meanings.

Out of the gate, he offers a howler, a blundering 'refutation' from which HONEST and SERIOUS research, research characterized by a devotion to the Truth himself, would have saved him.

If there were limitless time and energy, then it might be worthwhile to pick through these swamps and identify each false step.

But at my back I always hear
Time's wingéd chariot, hurrying near, ...

And, frankly I resent an anti-Catholic who so despises us that he doesn't take the trouble to tell the truth.

[CynicalBear]

>>Less than a quarter of an hour with the Summa would have shown him that we don't claim what he says we claim.<<

So what does he claim you claim that you don't claim. Let's investigate that.

[CynicalBear]

>>So he claims a refutation of what we don’t teach. <<

What does he say you teach that you claim you don't?

[Mad Dawg]

The doctrine also asserts that during the last supper where Jesus instituted the memorial of His passion, the bread, after being blessed by Jesus, became His literal glorified body.

Does it get ANYBODY'S attention that this self-proclaimed Patristic scholar does not give a citation for this statement? How does Mister "Oh so much smarter than those unChristian and Anti-Scriptural Catholics" slip this in there?

What is his EVIDENCE that the doctrine asserts what he says it asserts?

And, if he can say stuff like this without bringing evidence, then why shouldn't my arguments be ad hominem? He was faithless in little. Why should I spend any more time on him?

[impimp]

John 6:66

Why did his disciples leave Him when he told them of what was a “figurative” teaching?

[goodwithagun]

May I use your phrase?

Meanwhile, Islam advances.

[pleasenotcalifornia]

You might look into this. Here are our refutations.
Ignatius, Epistula ad Smyrnaeos 6, 2.
Justin Martyr, Apologia prima pro Christanis 65.
Irenaeus, Adversus haereses 5, 2, 2; 4, 33, 7.
Origen, in Exodum homiliae 13, 3.
Athanasius, Sermo ad nuper baptizatos.
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catecheses 22, 6.

[editor-surveyor]

.
The “this” that he was holding was not a sungod cookie, it was a traditional woven barley loaf that had been broken for the daily blessing of the Melek Zedek for close to two millennia, and he ate it himself too.

His request was that it be done as often as they had an evening meal, in remembrance of him.

.

[CynicalBear]

>>Does it get ANYBODY'S attention that this self-proclaimed Patristic scholar does not give a citation for this statement?<<

Does the Catholic Church not teach that after He blessed it that it became His literal glorified body?

[ifinnegan]

You have an obsession.

Not a healthy one, nor one that strives for objectivity.

[9thLife]

10,676 words.

Proverbs 10:19 and John 6:52

[NRx]

Embarrassing silliness. Out of context quotes, distorted and in some cases simply fabricated statements of belief about others...

For a much more serious (and non-Roman) read on this subject I suggest “EUCHARIST, BISHOP, CHURCH: THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH IN THE DIVINE EUCHARIST AND THE BISHOP DURING THE FIRST THREE CENTURIES” previously posted in this thread...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3258163/posts

[Star Traveler]

It kinda takes your breath away ... seeing it right there!

[editor-surveyor]

.
Not one of those men believed anything that papists believe.
.

[MNDude]

I’m one of those people that tried to prove himself one thing and ended up proving himself something else.

I was raised Lutheran and was actually quite the fan of Marin Luther and began reading up more on him. I’m sorry to say the more I read, the less I liked. For someone that preached “Sola Scriptura” he sure had a lot of contempt for the scriptures

James: “An Epistle of Straw”
Revelation “I don’t see the Holy Sprit Guiding the Writing of This Book”
Hebrews “Bits and pieces of straw”
Esther “I’m very much an enemy of the Book of Esther”

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. The guy was adding and removing from the Bible like crazy. At least Calvin and the the RC’s respected the integrity of the Bible as far as I know.

Not saying I know which theology is right, but whenever I hear Luther theology now, I feel a great amount of distrust.

[CynicalBear]

CCC 1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord's command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread. . . ." "He took the cup filled with wine. . . ." The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine, fruit of the "work of human hands," but above all as "fruit of the earth" and "of the vine" - gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who "brought out bread and wine," a prefiguring of her own offering.

How is what the author claimed different?

[Star Traveler]

Yeah ... we’re dealing with a “legend” today ... rather than reality.

I do appreciate the BREAK from the CORRUPT RELIGIOUS SYSTEM ... but some of that carried forward, too, with Luther.

[Mad Dawg]

What does he say you teach that you claim you don't?

You will REALLY try this? This person LIES about us and it's up to me to defend myself against his LIES -- and to do your work for you?

If you all are so VERY sure that what we teach about the Eucharist is wrong that you condemn us, then YOU show, WITH EVIDENCE, what we teach. I knew what was bogus about this guy's claim before I came to believe in Transubstantiation.

Then there's this weird double-bind Protestants try to put us in. FIRST they complain that we treat non-canonical "Fathers" as if they were inspired the same way Scripture is. Then they complain because we DON't treat non-canonical "Fathers" as if they were inspired the same way Scripture is. SO this guy, in, of course, the objective and charitable pursuit of the truth, has to get a little dig in about Tertullian ... who died a schismatic and a heretic, but, well, who cares, right? "Hulk SMASH!" is not an apologetic or evangelical technique I've heard of before -- and not one that I think will achieve a great deal.

[MHGinTN]

In Egypt, well before Moses (who was being groomed to be Pharaoh), there was this tradition of 'bread' in the form of little cone-shaped cakes made with monatomic Gold being brought to the ruler for his consumption, to impart virtual immortality upon him. These little cakes were said to be made with the 'Philosopher's Stone', the Stone of Immortality. In Jewish tradition, the bread is broken and eaten for Passover remembrance, isn't it?