none of a school teachers business
Posted on 11/29/2014 2:59:15 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
I had my baptist youth pastor tell me the same thing when I told him I wanted to be come Catholic. I just laugh at it now. I made me angry at the time however. My priest now just tells me “they don’t know what they don’t know”. That youth pastor did not get it and he never will as far as I’m concerned. Then again, pray I am wrong. If he converted I’d do a Fred Sanford. “OH ELIZABETH! IT’S THE BIG ONE!!”
Jesus never said, “I am a real door,” or “I am a real vine.” But he did say, “My flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink.”
Not so. For one thing, where would this flesh and blood come from? A chicken? A turkey? But then they wouldn't be the flesh and blood of Jesus!
Jesus gave us the answer: He took bread and wine and said THIS is my body, THIS is my blood.
When St. Paul writes about unworthy reception of the Eucharist, he doesn't say that it makes a person guilty of hypocrisy or dishonesty--which is all it would be if the Eucharist were only a symbol.
Paul says an unworthy reception of the Eucharist makes a person "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." That's a weirdly concrete way of describing an act that is only hypocritical or dishonest.
If Jesus had eaten His actual flesh and blood, or commanded His disciples to eat actual flesh and blood, then He would have sinned and would have commanded His disciples to sin.
That he COULD NOT do. He would then have not been the sinless, spotless lamb of God.
Additionally, Peter said that he had never eaten anything unclean in Acts 10.
If he had eaten flesh and blood during the Last Supper, then he was lying to God about never having eaten anything unclean.
The blood is for atonement, not consumption. It was NEVER consumed in the OT.
Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink of His blood, you shall not have life within you.......Figurative????? I don't think so, but good luck with your theory.
When Jesus said, *I am the door* and *I am the true vine*, it doesn't sound very figurative to me.
Indeed, Jesus DOES say that it's figurative because in John 6:63. He TELLS us it's figurative when He says, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
There is no such thing as free will as Catholics describe it.
We are sold as slaves to sin. We have no choice but to sin until and unless we are set free by Jesus.
Works will NOT attain salvation for anyone because one sin is all it takes to damn someone. Once that sin is committed, it doesn’t matter if the person leads a perfect life otherwise, it’s too late, unless they are forgiven.
uh, God is our father and his mercy is wide and deep. You make him out to be a boogey man out to catch you in a mistake, who then gleefully will smash you and send you to hell.
No wonder so many people think Christians are hard nosed judgemental snobs.
One of the earliest arguments in Christianity was about how good and decent pagans would get to heaven. If it was based only on deeds (e.g. the Last Judgement as told by Jesus) then we didn't need Jesus to die for you. But if it was only based on "faith", then you end up with the idea that you can go around sinning like hell but still have a "get out of hell free" card because you "believe" in Jesus.
Catholics say: Yes, both. We are saved by grace: as paul said By the grace of God I am what I am, but his grace in me has not been fruitless.
Decent pagans might not "know" Jesus intellectually, but their actions show they "know" him in their heart, and they are seeking him , so receive "baptism of desire".
That is why at the last Judgement, a lot of folks ask: When did we see you hungry or thirsty (etc) and Jesus answered: When you do it for the least of my brethren you do it to me.
All the passages you quoted have to do with the eating of physical flesh and blood. In the Eucharist, Jesus’ flesh and blood are not physically present, but sacramentally present, precisely because eating physical living flesh and blood would be horrible.
Did he show his work on the board? Was it traditional format or new format math?
God is our creator, but only the Father to His children, those who accept Jesus. And He is gracious and merciful and will pardon any who come to Him in faith, but does not grant blanket forgiveness to those who are in rebellion to Him.
You make him out to be a boogey man out to catch you in a mistake, who then gleefully will smash you and send you to hell.
Um, no.
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
People are projecting when they read that much into a comment about our sinful state. There's a world of difference between God warning us of the consequences of our sin and Him taking *glee* in those consequences. Anyone who projects that onto God is revealing what is in their own heart.
No wonder so many people think Christians are hard nosed judgemental snobs.
Projection again. People don't like to hear the truth about themselves and attack the messenger.
One of the earliest arguments in Christianity was about how good and decent pagans would get to heaven. If it was based only on deeds (e.g. the Last Judgement as told by Jesus) then we didn't need Jesus to die for you. But if it was only based on "faith", then you end up with the idea that you can go around sinning like hell but still have a "get out of hell free" card because you "believe" in Jesus.
And that lie is still getting mileage today. While it's true that if it were based on works, Jesus didn't need to die, but the second part is not true. Nobody who is born again, born from above, and has the Holy Spirit living in them, will think that flippantly about the death of Jesus that redeemed them from the penalty of sin.
Paul says in Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Works are the fruit of salvation, not the cause of it.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Decent pagans might not "know" Jesus intellectually, but their actions show they "know" him in their heart, and they are seeking him , so receive "baptism of desire".
A fabrication of the Catholic church. There is nothing in Scripture indicating that.
Nor are there any *decent pagans*. WE, as humans, look at each other and judge each other as *good*, comparing ourselves to ourselves, but God's standard is absolute perfection and the soul that sins will surely die.
That is why at the last Judgement, a lot of folks ask: When did we see you hungry or thirsty (etc) and Jesus answered: When you do it for the least of my brethren you do it to me.
That's not spoken to those in the church age.
The Passover, which the Jews celebrated, was also an act of remembrance.
They were not reliving the actual slaying of the firstborn by the death angel every year it was celebrated.
Nor did they eat the blood of the sacrifice. It was put on the door posts of the house so that when the angel of death saw the blood he would pass over them.
That is symbolic of God seeing the blood of Christ covering us and that makes it symbolic, foreshadowing salvation by faith in Christ.
But the blood was NOT to be consumed and never was in Scripture, a command of God given even before the Law was put into place.
More often than not man is his own tormentor, and his own condemnation, and his own destruction. Roman Empire committed suicide by a number of trends followed today by modern society. If anything, God needs a miracle to make sure that society doesn’t destroy everyone along with itself. We’re talking, depending on how you interpret the fifth chapter of Zechariah, global nuclear war. Either God has that power to keep people alive in Nebuchadnezzar’s fiery furnace, or he isn’t true. Time to work out whether each of us believes that much or not. If the fiery furnace doesn’t, than nukes will still be survivable by some of the faithful.
none of a school teachers business
“If one seeks to lead one away from faith in Christ...”
Then “one” was never of the Faith to begin with!
Mr. Armstrong....is that you?!
You mean the 1st church fathers who taught 'scripture alone', and 'faith alone'...And those who never recognized Peter or anyone else as a pope...
Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Christ is that living word that proceeds from the mouth of God! To live is Christ but to die is gain!
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Christ Is God’s Word made flesh which dwelt amongst us!
I wish I had understood when I was much younger these similes that I am only now beginning to dimly grasp in my middle age. Whatever else happens in my life, I have been blessed to be given a look at scripture in a way I never could have never guessed for myself that it should be possible. It’s like a butterfly on my shoulder....I don’t want it to go away but I dare not grasp for it or even dare breathe for fear it will fly away!
The earliest church fathers never mentioned your Eucharist...It was a later addition...PolyCarp never mentioned it...Ignatius' letters are known to be forged from a later date...
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
And God didn't say his words were symbolic of food...
Eze 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
Eze 3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
Eze 3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
Eze 2:8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.
Eze 2:9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;
Eze 2:10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.
Perhaps if your teachers had read and believed the bible they would know that examples were given thru out scripture how to understand those scriptures that do not literally make sense...
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
The bible is milk and meat, We are plants in a garden, bread and wine is flesh and blood, we will never thirst again...
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
I'd say a lot less time studying human philosophy and a lot more time studying the scriptures is good for the soul...
There is no rule that visions are symbolic...
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