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Why Did God Kill Onan? Luther, Calvin, Wesley, C.S. Lewis, & Others on Contraception
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism ^ | Monday, February 09, 2004 | Dave Armstrong

Posted on 10/26/2014 8:08:35 AM PDT by GonzoII

Why Did God Kill Onan? Luther, Calvin, Wesley, C.S. Lewis, & Others on Contraception


Genesis 38:9-10: “But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. 10 And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also.”
It is an historical fact that no Christian communion sanctioned contraception until the Anglican Lambeth Conference in 1930. Protestant historian Roland Bainton states casually that the Church “very early forbade contraception” (Early Christianity, 56). According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, “many Christian moralists . . . repudiate all methods of family limitation” (Cross, 889). Ronald Knox eloquently recounted how Christians used to detest contraception:

Practices hitherto connected with the unmentioned underworld have found their way into the home . . . it is not merely a Christian principle that has been thrown overboard . . . Ovid and Juvenal, with no flicker of Christian revelation to guide them, branded the practices in question with the protest of heathen satire. It is not Christian morality, but natural morality as hitherto conceived, that has been outraged by the change of standard.

(Knox, 31-32)


Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism alike) had always opposed contraception as gravely sinful. When I first learned of this in 1990 (as an inquiring evangelical pro-life activist curious about the “odd” and inexplicable Catholic prohibition) it was a shocking revelation to me and the first step on my road to conversion to Catholicism.

Today, probably upwards of 90% of Protestants and 80% of Catholics use contraceptives. It is a mortal sin in Catholicism, and used to always be considered an extremely serious sin in Protestant circles. How things change. The great Anglican apologist C.S. Lewis, for example, opposed contraception:

As regards contraceptives, there is a paradoxical, negative sense in which all possible future generations are the patients or subjects of a power wielded by those already alive. By contraception simply, they are denied existence; by contraception used as a means of selective breeding, they are, without their concurring voice, made to be what one generation, for its own reasons, may choose to prefer. From this point of view, what we call Man's power over Nature turns out to be a power exercised by some men over other men with Nature as its instrument.

(The Abolition of Man, 68-69)


Genesis 38:9-10 (about Onan) has been one of the main prooftexts traditionally used to oppose contraception. Observe how Martin Luther interpreted this biblical passage:

Onan must have been a malicious and incorrigible scoundrel. This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a Sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed . . . He was inflamed with the basest spite and hatred . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore God punished him . . . That worthless fellow . . . preferred polluting himself with a most disgraceful sin to raising up offspring for his brother.

(Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 38-44; 1544; LW, 7, 20-21)
John Calvin, in his Commentary on Genesis is no less vehemently opposed to the practice (what would he think if he knew about the vast majority of Calvinists today who regularly contracept?):
I will contend myself with briefly mentioning this, as far as the sense of shame allows to discuss it. It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was guilty of a similar crime, by defiling the earth with his seed, so that Tamar would not receive a future inheritor.
The New Bible Dictionary concludes, on the other hand, “this verse does not pass any judgment on birth control as such” (Douglas, 789). The reasoning often used to overcome the force of the verse is that Onan was punished by God (with death) for disobeying the “levirate law,” whereby a brother of a dead husband was to take his sister-in-law as his wife and have children with her (Deuteronomy 25:5-10).

But that can’t apply in this case (or any other) because the same work informs us that the law “allows the brother the option of refusing.” Thus we find in Deuteronomy 25:9 that a sister-in-law so refused should “spit in his face,” but there is no mention of any death penalty or the wrath of God.

How then, can the New Bible Dictionary be so sure that the slaying of Onan by God had no relation to contraception? God didn’t command Onan in this case – another argument sometimes heard -- , so he wasn’t directly disobeying God (it was his father Judah who asked him to do what he didn’t want to do: Gen 38:8).

Whatever was “displeasing” to God couldn’t have been disobedience regarding the levirate law, since He allowed people to disobey it and recommended that they suffer only public humiliation, not death, which is not nearly as serious as being “wicked” -- the reason God slew Onan’s brother Er (Gen 38:7).

Moreover, the passage which teaches about the levirate law (Deuteronomy 25:5-10) is from God, as part of the covenant and the Law received by Moses on Mt. Sinai, and proclaimed by Him to all of Israel (see Deut 5:1-5, 29:1,12).

If God Himself did not say that the punishment for disobeying the levirate law was death (in the place where it would be expected if it were true), how can modern commentators “know” this? Can it be that their “knowledge” exists in order to avoid uncomfortable implications concerning a prohibition of contraception? Might there be a little bit of bias at play?

Yet the article on Onan in the same dictionary (the earlier comment was in the article, “Marriage”), written by the editor, J.D. Douglas, states:

Onan . . . took steps to avoid a full consummation of the union, thus displeasing the Lord, who slew him.

(Douglas, 910)

Douglas appears to contend that Onan was killed for the contraceptive act, not disobedience to the levirate law. If so, his opinion contradicts the view expressed in the other article by J.S. Wright and J.A. Thompson. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary concurs:

. . . whenever Onan and Tamar had intercourse he would spill his sperm on the ground to prevent her from conceiving; for this the Lord slew him.

Onan’s tactic of withdrawing before ejaculation . . . costs him his life.

(Myers, 781, 653)

In its article on “Levirate Law,” we are also informed that “the brother had the option of refusing to take his sister-in-law in levirate marriage (652). The logic is apparent: if refusal alone was not grounds to be killed by God or by capital punishment issued by his fellows, then there must have been something in the way Onan refused which was the cause. This was the “withdrawal method,” a form of contraception (probably the one most used throughout history). Therefore, Onan was killed for doing that, which in turn means that God didn’t approve of it.

One might still retort as follows: “it is not contraception per se that was wrong in Onan’s case, but the fact that he wanted to have sex with the woman but not to have children. He had the right to refuse the levirate marriage, but once he agreed to it he was obligated to produce the children which was the purpose of it.”

I would agree with this hypothetical objection prima facie, but (upon closer inspection) I would add that it actually confirms the central moral point on which the moral objection to contraception is based: the evil of separating sex from procreation. It is precisely because the central purpose of marriage is procreation, that the levirate law was present in the first place. If one married, they were to have sexual relations, which was (foremost) for the purpose of having children.

If a husband died with no children, it was so important for children to be born that God commanded the man’s brother to take his wife after he died. But Onan tried to separate sex from procreation. He wanted all the pleasure but not the responsibility of fatherhood or to help perpetuate his brother’s family. He possessed the “contraceptive mentality” which is rampant today, even among otherwise traditional, committed Christians.

This is what is evil: an unnatural separation of what God intended to be together. If Onan didn’t want children, he shouldn’t have agreed to the levirate marriage. Once married, he should have agreed to having children. But he tried the “middle way” of having sex but willfully separating procreation from it. This was the sin, and this is why God killed him. Martin Luther understood the fundamental evil of contraception and the “anti-child” mindset:

Today you find many people who do not want to have children. Moreover, this callousness and inhuman attitude, which is worse than barbarous, is met with chiefly among the nobility and princes, who often refrain from marriage for this one single reason, that they might have no offspring. It is even more disgraceful that you find princes who allow themselves to be forced not to marry, for fear that the members of their house would increase beyond a definite limit. Surely such men deserve that their memory be blotted out from the land of the living. Who is there who would not detest these swinish monsters? But these facts, too, serve to emphasize original sin. Otherwise we would marvel at procreation as the greatest work of God, and as a most outstanding gift we would honor it with the praises it deserves.

(Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5, 1536; LW, I, 118; commentary on Genesis 2:18)
The rest of the populace is more wicked than even the heathen themselves. For most married people do not desire offspring. Indeed, they turn away from it and consider it better to live without children, because they are poor and do not have the means with which to support a household. . . . But the purpose of marriage is not to have pleasure and to be idle but to procreate and bring up children, to support a household. . . . Those who have no love for children are swine, stocks, and logs unworthy of being called men and women; for they despise the blessing of God, the Creator and Author of marriage.

(Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 26-30; LW, V, 325-328; vol. 28, 279; commentary on the birth of Joseph to Jacob and Rachel; cf. LW, vol. 45, 39-40)
But the greatest good in married life, that which makes all suffering and labor worth while, is that God grants offspring and commands that they be brought up to worship and serve him. In all the world this is the noblest and most precious work, because to God there can be nothing dearer than the salvation of souls. Now since we are all duty bound to suffer death, if need be, that we might bring a single soul to God, you can see how rich the estate of marriage is in good works.

(The Estate of Marriage, 1522; LW, vol. 45, 46)
You will find many to whom a large number of children is unwelcome, as though marriage had been instituted only for bestial pleasures and not also for the very valuable work by which we serve God and men when we train and educate the children whom God has given us. They do not appreciate the most pleasant feature of marriage. For what exceeds the love of children?

(In Plass, II, #2834)
Let’s examine more traditional Protestant commentary on Genesis 38:8-9. Matthew Henry decries “the great abuse of his own body” and “sins that dishonour the body and defile it” which “are very displeasing to God and evidences of vile affections.” John Wesley actually quotes Henry, adds that Onan was abusing his wife, and concludes with this powerful condemnation:

Observe, the thing which he did displeased the Lord -- And it is to be feared, thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls.


Sources

Bainton, Roland H., Early Christianity, New York: D. Van Nostrand Company, 1960.

Calvin, John, Calvin's Commentaries, 22 volumes, translated and edited by John Owen; originally printed for the Calvin Translation Society, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1853; reprinted by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI: 1979. Available online: http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment2/

Cross, F.L. and E.A. Livingstone, editors, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2nd edition, 1983.

Douglas, J.D., editor, The New Bible Dictionary, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1962.

Henry, Matthew [Presbyterian], Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible, 1706. Available online:
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc.html

Knox, Ronald, The Belief of Catholics, Garden City, NY: Doubleday Image, 1927; reprinted in 1958.

Lewis, C.S., The Abolition of Man, New York: Macmillan, 1947.

Luther, Martin, Luther's Works (LW), American edition, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan (volumes 1-30) and Helmut T. Lehmann (volumes 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (volumes 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (volumes 31-55), 1955.

Myers, Allen C., editor, The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1987; English revision of Bijbelse Encyclopedie, edited by W.H. Gispen, Kampen, Netherlands: J.H. Kok, revised edition, 1975; translated by Raymond C. Togtman and Ralph W. Vunderink.

Plass, Ewald M., What Luther Says, an Anthology, two volumes, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959.

Wesley, John [founder of Methodism], Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible, 1765. Available (online)

* * * * *

From my book: The Catholic Verses (published in 2004 by Sophia Institute Press)

For further fascinating exegesis of the Onan passage, see Fr. Brian Harrison's comments: “The Sin of Onanism Revisited."

Also of related interest: “Church History and Birth Control” (many full citations).


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; birthcontrol; calvin; contraception; godsword; johncalvin; johnwesley; luther; martinluther; onan; scripture; thepill; wesley
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To: wmfights

Love it!!! LoL..A thing of beauty!


121 posted on 10/26/2014 10:01:42 PM PDT by caww
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The Bible is going to be “reinterpreted” by people to suit modern society. It clearly happened here and will happen again . For some denominations, like the Episcopalians, the Bible is now an empty husk. More denominations that have no regard for tradition will follow suit not because the interpretation is right, but simply because it’s easier.


122 posted on 10/27/2014 5:06:34 AM PDT by DarkSavant
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To: hecticskeptic
" I can’t think of a solitary reference to a male-female sex act referenced in scripture (marital or non-marital) that wasn’t in the procreative form…"

Onan on Tamar.

123 posted on 10/27/2014 8:05:23 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: daniel1212
"(why look to a church that sanctions bowing before a statue in praise and prayer and attributing the the object of such Divine attributes?)"

I realize that's just a parenthetical, bu it's so tedious to run into this over and over, even after it's been patiently explained dozens of times.

1. Bowing does not signfy adoration only, but rather a whole range of reverent attitudes which are BIBLICALLY shown to be given to people, places, and things which are rightly to be honored. In the Bible, there are literally dozens of references of people bowing to people (e.g King David), places (e.g. Jerusalem), and things (e.g. the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant) and there is no condemnation of this because it is not idolatry.

Look, if you will, It'll just take you 30 seconds to run your eyes over this - LINK

So bowing to show honor is not bogus, and not idolatry. It is Biblical.

2."...attributing the the (sic) object of such Divine attributes?"

I'm guessing you're saying Catholics think statues have divine attributes? Then you are mistaken. That would be nuts.

As for the reet, I'm almost out the door here so I can't answer much. However the implication that Gods left the Church in the dark about the nature and purpose of male-female sex for 1930 years, and then --- well, what happened at Lambeth in 1930, anyway, that was so convincing that, as we see from the historic record, what had been a solid phalanx of Christian opposition to contraception simply disappeared and the churches capitulated? Can you explain that to me?

That's not a "Gotha" challenge. I can't explain it either. It is so bizarre. First contraception, then easy divorce,then abortion(the Catholic church stood virtually alone against it in 1973 --- Lord, I DOlove me some Baptists, but conservative Baptists stood in favor of legal abortion in 1973) and now, the "GHEY" thing.

The utter deconstruction --- I could almost say decomposition --- of natural sex. Who defends natural sex sex, tout court, today?

Have a nice day. I'm going out to pass out leaflets on a pro-life amendment to the TN constitution. It's early voting day at the polls. Prayers please.

124 posted on 10/27/2014 8:27:14 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Ok... I would have thought you’d try to provide a reference other than the one that we were talking about....


125 posted on 10/27/2014 9:55:01 AM PDT by hecticskeptic (In life it's important to know what you believeÂ….but more more importantly, why you believe it.)
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To: hecticskeptic
There's only one contracepted sex act described in the O.T. It gains its significance because Biblically, fertility is invariably described as a blessing, and barrenness invariably described as a curse.

It's almost as if people thought there was something to be respected in the male-female design? And why would they think that? BTW, lesbianism is, if I remember correctly, only spoken of once. Maybe twice.

126 posted on 10/27/2014 10:03:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

So essentially, when you earlier made the rather sweeping statement that “There is not one act of sex ever condemned in the Bible if it is marital and in the procreative form.”, you were basing that on one solitary case which you have interpreted in a specific way to make it all about contraception… have I got that right? So if I’m correct that this passage has nothing to do with contraception but simply being about the disobedience and mocking of God with regards to how Onan treated the sacredness of his duty, than you will be left with no Biblical teaching about contraception….right?


127 posted on 10/27/2014 12:03:11 PM PDT by hecticskeptic (In life it's important to know what you believeÂ….but more more importantly, why you believe it.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
While anyone can argue for the rest of their life whether what they are doing is *worship*, God is very clear in the Ten Commandments that His people are not to make graven images and bow down before them or serve them.

Semantics aside, bowing is bowing and can be objectively determined by observing physical actions.

Exodus 20:1-6 And God spoke all these words, saying,
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
“You shall have no other gods before me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

128 posted on 10/27/2014 1:12:46 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: hecticskeptic
No, no really.

The Bible actually says little about gay and contraceptive sex, but says a lot about natural sex, about male and female and life and marriage, from beginning to end.

One of the things we have --- and this is, you might object, another "one-liner", but it shines like a beacon from Genesis across the whole of Scriptures --- is that God's designing us as imaging Him in "male and female," is good and is providential.

"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

The essential characteristics of male and female are portrayed as being very close to His "imaging" design, very much part of His "signifying" intent.

(That's one reason why it exasperates me to hear people speak of the difference between male and female as consisting of "different plumbing." It's not just a plumbing reality, it is a personal design ----- and we were designed in the hands of a personal God --- so that the masculine and the feminine, whole and intact and complete in every detain, have a sacred significance: not that we are gods and goddesses, no; but that we are signed with His signature.

Therefore people who want to pull apart the wholeness of sex --- to cut off pleasure from procreation, itch from inspiration, sensation from sacrament --- are not "getting" the Sign: they are tearing the sign to pieces.

Using hormones, devices and surgery to suppress one's sexual function (as in contraception) is much akin to using hormones, devices and surgery to suppress one's sexual identity (gender-reasignment surgery.)

It is saying, "God, fertility connected to sex? This can;t be a feature. It must be a bug. A design flaw. But we can fix it."

Or: "God, it is a pain in the *** that you linked things as you did, pleasure and procreation together, lovemaking and life-making together, and we can't stand it because we want to take these exquisitely detailed linkages apart and exploit the fragments separately: here he itch and there the honor, here the frisson and there, or as rarely as possible, the fertility."

Contraception is the initial stage of the rejection of natural sex.

It obliterates the sense of the sacred (which is why people can hardly associate "sex" and"sacredness" anymore. It makes no sense to them. They read such words in a stultified state, uncomprehending.)

And since the sign of natural sex is sacred (Gen. 1), this is a loss of sacedness: a sacrilege. . A loss of a designed sign from the Creator, a loss of the supernatural; a loss even of the natural. And where do we sink to from there?

I feel so sorry for the children of this generation.

129 posted on 10/27/2014 3:12:53 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: metmom
There's distinctly different senses of "bowing": the sense of adoration, and "bowing" in the sense of an infinitely lesser religious, civil or social honor, as to a king, a kinsman, a father, a husband, a brother, a neighbor, a father-in-law, a friend, a prophet, a priest, the Ark of the Covenant, Jerusalem, the altar, the seraph Moses raised up, etc..

It is obviously the first which is forbidden, not the second, since the second is practiced throughout OT, and not portrayed as being idolatrous incurred God's disfavor.

It permeates Old Testament culture.

I looked up “kneel(ing)” and “bow(ing)” in the good old BibleGateway Keyword Search, and found so many references it would be exhausting to list them all.


Genesis 23:7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of that land

Genesis 33:3-7 Jacob bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother Esau

maidservants and their children bow down to Esau

Leah and her children bow down

Joseph and Rachel bow. Etc. etc!

Genesis 37 Joseph’s dreams: his brothers’ sheaves of corn -— and then the sun and moon and eleven stars —— bow down to him. Later his brothers actually do bow down to him with their faces to the ground

Genesis 48:11 Joseph bows to Jacob “with his face to the earth.”

1 Kings 1:15 Bathsheba bows low (face to the ground) and kneels before the aged king David

2 Kings 1:13 the captain kneels before the prophet Elijah, and “prays” —begs-— him to spare his life and the life of his 50 men

Moses bows down to father-in-law; Ruth bows down to Boaz;

David prostrates before Jonathan;

David prostrates to Saul;

Abigail prostrates to David;

Saul prostrates to Samuel;

Nathan prostrates to David;

Obadiah bows to the ground before Elijah;

the prophets in Jericho bow before Elisha;

the “whole assembly” bows low and prostrates before David;

David bows to the Temple;

David prostrates to Jerusalem;

God causes the king’s adversaries to bow prostrate on the ground and “lick the dust at his feet”;

the sons of the oppressors will bow to Zion.


OK, pretty obviously the patriarchs, prophets, and kings knew about the commandment not to bow down and worship anything or anybody but God. But here they are bowing, kneeling, and prostrating, and God is not offended. Why?

Because the commandment clearly forbids bowing and worshipping a creature as the Creator; it does not forbid kneeling or bowing (to king, prophet, father, husband or brother) as a form of honor.

The commandment does not prohibit kneeling or bowing to give honor. It prohibits adoration toward anyone but Almighty God.

Now here’s an interesting episode:

1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

Here’s the King bowing to his mother. Does that mean she’s equal to God? No. It doesn’t even mean she’s equal to the King. It means he’s pleased to honor her because of her royal dignity, her relationship as Queen Mother.

As our mindset gets further and further from traditional custom and culture, it gets harder and harder to grasp what was once the universal language of physical gesture (he salute, the tip of the hat, the bow, the genuflection, the handclasp, the curtsey, the kiss) and put each expression in its proper perspective.

It’s something to ponder and appreciate. As I live, I appreciate it more and more.

130 posted on 10/27/2014 3:26:45 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Bowing does not signfy adoration only, but rather a whole range of reverent attitudes which are BIBLICALLY shown to be given to people, places, and things which are rightly to be honored

You are attempting to dismiss the totality of my statement by focusing on one aspect, which you even truncate. I was well aware of the fact that men are sometimes bowed down to, and could have supplied one in the NT, yet what you never see is any example of NT believers being bowed down to by believers, and which no less than Peter refused from an unconverted soul. For as Christ admonished, "all ye are brethren." The positional distinctions in the NT are not that of kings and their subjects as in the OT

But i did not even mention bowing down to men, but a statue, and not even in the OT do you see believers bowing down to a statue of men sanctioned. And even the cherubim in the Temple were made under the express command of God, (Ex. 25:18) as was the bronze serpent, versus "make unto yourselves" graven images.

bowing to show honor is not bogus, and not idolatry.

Incorrect: bowing down can be both wrong and idolatry, and thus Mordecai would not, and God commands not to make or bow down to them in the religious context:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:4-5)

Go even find one example of anyone bowing down/ kneeling before a statue and praising the created entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

We cannot tell the difference btwn "latria" and "hyperdulia" - and certainly many of the appellations attributed to Mary befit Christ, not her as revealed in Scripture!. And instead of making discerning btwn "latria" and "hyperdulia" the criteria, bowing down before any images in a religious context and making supplication to anyone but the Lord is utterly absent from Scripture, except by pagans, and is contrary to what it does say.

I'm guessing you're saying Catholics think statues have divine attributes?

What i am saying is only God is shown being able to hear and respond to a virtually infinite number of prayers addressed to them in Heaven. Angels or elders offer memorial incense will not do it, nor will extrapolating a correspondence btwn earthly communication and that of btwn created being in each realm (which in Scripture required one to be present in either realm).

It is simply incongruous and inconceivable that the Holy Spirit would not include even one prayer addressed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord amidst the approx. 175 to Him, except for pagans making offerings to their Queen of Heaven - which is the only one found in the Bible. (Jer. 44:25)

what had been a solid phalanx of Christian opposition to contraception simply disappeared and the churches capitulated? Can you explain that to me?

I thought i basically did, but perhaps you did not consider it. And it remains that is those who most strongly hold to unchanging Scripture being supreme as the wholly inspired and accurate word of God that are far the most conservative overall, far more than the fruit of modern morphing Rome, which shows what she really believes by what she does with Ted Kennedy RCs.

131 posted on 10/27/2014 3:29:22 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Actually the Ted Kennedy apostates are --- apostates. The fact that Ted was never properly shepherded by his bishop in his whole life, never confronted with his public sins and called to repentance, given a grand farce of a church funeral that looked and probably smelled like a canonization, is not the expression of Catholicism, but the brazen rejection of Catholicism.

Shame on Cardinal Sean O'Malley and all the rest of the false shepherds who are, every one of them, in violation of Canon Law and committing sacrilege against the Most Blessed Sacrament for admitting baby-murderers and other manifest grave sinners to Communion.

They think they are above the Law. They will see at some point, here or hereafter, they are not above the Lawgiver.

132 posted on 10/27/2014 3:42:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Therefore people who want to pull apart the wholeness of sex --- to cut off pleasure from procreation…

Well, there are a number of things I agree with you on but on the fundamental issue that started this post, we’ll have to disagree. I do agree that the association between sex and sacredness has for the most part vanished from our society and that no doubt is due to the pulling apart of sex as facilitated by contraception…. but I can’t see that this has had anything to do with contraception as being practiced by a married couple. I would agree though that contraception has changed society in many profound and negative ways....it certainly has changed the way that those who are not yet married think about sex and marriage with the result that both are degraded. One of the natural prohibitions that would make unmarried people think twice before having sex would be the reality that the act could lead to pregnancy (which is part of the sacredness of the act in that it leads to life). With that prohibition out of the way, the rate that unmarried people engage in sex climbed through the roof…. So much so that one of the other natural prohibitions (venereal disease which is typically not affected by contraception unless the method is condoms) has gone through the roof. However, contraception should not be viewed as the problem here….. God’s purpose and design for our lives doesn’t change with or without the existence of contraception. God’s plan for humanity is that sex is reserved for those who are married and this still applies…. and those who are unmarried practising sex are disobeying God’s laws regardless of whether contraception exists or not. To use an analogy, guns don’t kill people…. people kill people. The gun is just the instrument in the murder….. and there are many other potential instruments that could have done the same thing. Contraception doesn’t create the sin….. sinners create the sin. The birth control pill was just the instrument for making it appear to the participants that they can sin without consequences.

Let me ask you a question about your comment that I clipped above…. If you are adamant that the ‘wholeness of sex where pleasure is not cut off from procreation’ is absolute, is it your interpretation that a married couple must desist from having sex once the wife is beyond her childbearing years? Based on your comment, that would appear to be so, no?

133 posted on 10/27/2014 6:15:21 PM PDT by hecticskeptic (In life it's important to know what you believeÂ….but more more importantly, why you believe it.)
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To: hecticskeptic
No, not at all.

Realistically, MOST married sex happens at naturally infertile times. Normally, there's only one week a month (average) when a woman is fertile. If you add up

You've got known, foreseen, infertile sex most of the time, just because of the periodic nature for fertility. Rough calculation: a woman of 70 who's been married 50 years and had 3 kids,

All those times are fine for sex.

The "wrong" comes in when you have deliberately impaired or sabotaged the natural design of sex, in order to create infertility. To render what WOULD have been a fertile act, infertile.

Therefore sex all through the infertile 3 weeks, all through pregnancy, all through lactational anovulatory phase, all through menopause, is fine. It's the design!

And honoring the design is honoring the Designer.

134 posted on 10/27/2014 6:56:23 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom
Actually the Ted Kennedy apostates are --- apostates.

Please! This presumes you are more Catholic then the leadership you point us to, yet makes you like a Protestant in interpreting your church over the leadership. Kennedy was in fact treated as a member in life and in death, thus testifying to the judgment of your leadership as to who is a apostate and not fit, according to canon law, for even an ecclesiastical funeral.

The fact that Ted was never properly shepherded by his bishop in his whole life, never confronted with his public sins and called to repentance, given a grand farce of a church funeral that looked and probably smelled like a canonization, is not the expression of Catholicism, but the brazen rejection of Catholicism.

What kind of argument is that? And this is the church you want to send us to?!

a recent letter Ted wrote to the Pope to the pope, delivered by Obama (if the ACLU ever knew) who gave the eulogy, was read at his graveside, in which he ]Kennedy] insolently asserts he “never failed to believe and respect the fundamental teachings” of his church, and tried to be a faithful Catholic, etc..

The closest thing we get to any kind of contrition is the ambiguous, “I know that I have been an imperfect human being, but with the help of my faith, I have tried to right my path” [evidence needed!], before he goes on to to defend his wonderful works, including universal health care. Not a word of remorse about supporting abortion or promoting homosexual rights, or indolence and a welfare state.

In his response, no apparent censure to described at all, but in the response, written, as usual, through a senior Vatican official, he stated,

“He was saddened to know of your illness, and has asked me to assure you of his concern and his spiritual closeness. He is particularly grateful for your promise of prayers for him and for the needs of the universal Church."

The Holy Father has read the letter which you entrusted to President Barack Obama, who kindly presented it to him during their recent meeting. His Holiness prays that in the days ahead you may be sustained in faith and hope, and granted the precious grace of joyful surrender to the will of God our merciful Father. He invokes upon you the consolation and peace promised by the Risen Savior to all who share in His sufferings and trust in His promise of eternal life.

Commending you and the members of your family to the loving intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Holy Father cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of wisdom, comfort and strength in the Lord." (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/29/ted-kennedy-to-pope-benedict-i-am-writing-with-deep-humility/)

Shame on Cardinal Sean O'Malley and all the rest of the false shepherds...

And some go all the way to your pope in their censures, but I can criticize Rome on my own, and i am not going to be part of a fellowship that both tell me i am to look to leadership that "the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors," (VEHEMENTER NOS) and not rely on my own judgment, and at the same time also makes me part of a fellowship with known impenitent very immoral men.

135 posted on 10/27/2014 8:19:40 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
"Please! This presumes you are more Catholic then the leadership you point us to, yet makes you like a Protestant in interpreting your church over the leadership." Manifest as my faults my be, I am not judging prelates' decisions on the basis of my opinions. There are written laws--- Bible, Catechism, and Canon Law --- which are binding on all. The now- (but not for long) chief justice of the Catholic equivalent of the Supreme Court, Cardinal Raymond Burke, --- made a formal ruling that the public abortion enthusiasts are not eligible to be given Communion if they do not make a public repentance. It's as clear as the fingers on my hands. So I am not evaluating anybody n the basis of my "take" on things. I am evaluating on the basis of Catholic Doctrine which is, in fact, shockingly explicit.

Kennedy was in fact treated as a member in life and in death, thus testifying to the judgment of your leadership as to who is a apostate and not fit, according to canon law, for even an ecclesiastical funeral.

The judgment of the leadership --- I'm lookin' at YOU, Cardinal Sean O'Malley --- was unlawful.


136 posted on 10/28/2014 7:01:38 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ..
The now- (but not for long) chief justice of the Catholic equivalent of the Supreme Court, Cardinal Raymond Burke, --- made a formal ruling that the public abortion enthusiasts are not eligible to be given Communion if they do not make a public repentance. It's as clear as the fingers on my hands. So I am not evaluating anybody n the basis of my "take" on things. I am evaluating on the basis of Catholic Doctrine which is, in fact, shockingly explicit.

No, you are engaging in interpretation of what Rome really means, and that one of the few prelates who interprets canon law as forbidding a Teddy K Catholic as from receiving the Cath. Eucharist is correct, while others disagree.

Albany Bishop Howard Hubbard says it is “unfair and imprudent” to conclude that Gov. Andrew Cuomo and his girlfriend, Sandra Lee, shouldn’t receive Communion simply because they’re living together. — from the thread Bishop: None of your business (Hubbard rejects Catholic expert’s criticism of Gov. Cuomo)

And the relevant (fallible) canon 1184 states that, "If any doubt occurs, the local ordinary is to be consulted, and his judgment must be followed." And if not overruled then his interpretation stands, not yours.

And under which local judgment you have the case of Father Marcel Guarnizo, the priest who, after he denied Communion to a openly lesbian “Buddhist Catholic” woman, has been suspiciously placed on administrative leave [removed from active ministry] by the Washington archdiocese (ostensibly not as a consequence of treatment of the lesbian), while Cardinal Donald Wuerl of the Washington archdiocese where this incident took place stated that he will not withhold the Eucharist from pro-abortion politicians. (http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=897)

"...there’s a question about whether this canon’’ – the relevant church law – “was ever intended to be used’’ to bring politicians to heel. He thinks not. “I stand with the great majority of American bishops and bishops around the world in saying this canon [Canon 915] was never intended to be used this way.’’ — from the thread [Archbishop] Wuerl: Why I Won’t Deny Pelosi Communion

All of which are not silenced by Rome. So if we are to do what RCs constantly tell us to do, that is, not rely on our interpretation or that of our pastors, but look to the magisterium and pope of Rome, then we find no infallible teaching on this (among other things) that is not open to manifest uncensored (except by RCs int interpretation.

Then there are things like EENS or Exsurge Domine and the disunified understandings of what the magisterium means by such today, and with the present pope high-fiving evangelicals earning the censuring of traddie RCs, and numerous other interpretations of the RC Interpreter, while presenting it as the solution to the problem of interpretation for evangelicals who are more unified than the fruit of Rome in so many core issues.

Thus if RCs want to continue to promote a particular church, not simply a faith, and a church that is unified and solves the problem of laity disagreeing on who is faithful due to their fallible interpretation of what is correct RC teaching and application, then they need to fix the problems in their own house before they attack conservative evangelicals who will not join their unholy admixture.

137 posted on 10/28/2014 11:22:38 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Frankly? I stopped reading after you wrote, "No, you are engaging in interpretation..."

Solipsism and mockery. I have better things to do. Have a nice day. Interpret that as you will.

138 posted on 10/28/2014 11:48:52 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness & gentleness.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Gamecock; .45 Long Colt; wmfights; xone; MamaB; bramps; HarleyD
Frankly? I stopped reading after you wrote, "No, you are engaging in interpretation..." Solipsism and mockery. I have better things to do. Have a nice day. Interpret that as you will.

"I stopped reading." That is one way to deal with exposing the facade of the church that RCs present, but you are indeed engaging in interpretation, just as those RCs who differ with you, but as determination of Truth for an RC is not to be based upon the weight of evidence - lest they allow evangelicals could be justified in their dissent - but is based upon the what the magisterium teaches as shown by its application by the church, they must resort to being like Protest-ants when they see the application being inconsistent with what they see as authoritative.

139 posted on 10/28/2014 2:38:37 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: hecticskeptic
This passage has nothing to do with contraception except almost in an incidental or peripheral way to the story.

Agreed

Under normal day to day circumstances, a sexual act between Onan and his sister-in-law would be considered to be an adulterous act ...the exception to the rule would appear to be created by God because he wanted the widow to be looked after as well as the name of the dead brother to not simply disappear. And so this exception for sex outside of marriage was not only allowed and created, it was God approved. It was not meant to be interpreted as an exception that could be exploited to avoid falling under the law concerning adultery….... within the bounds of the holiness ascribed to the sexual act, this was simply an allowed exception that fulfilled a specific purpose of God.

I disagree here, as the text teaches that the brother was to marry the widow:

But if he will not take his brother's wife, who by law belongeth to him, the woman shall go to the gate of the city, and call upon the ancients, and say: My husband's brother refuseth to raise up his brother's name in Israel: and will not take me to wife . (Deu 25:7)

And thus the statement by the Sadducees regarding "seven brethren: and the first having married a wife, died; and not having issue, left his wife to his brother..."

At the resurrection therefore, whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her. (Mat 22:28)

Moreover, that the bros. still dwelt together may indicate the living brother was yet unmarried. Otherwise polygamy would be required by a law of God, if only in this circumstance.

140 posted on 10/28/2014 9:03:09 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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