Posted on 02/24/2014 2:10:01 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Yes, but how do you know he was? "Recognition" can be very subjective. How do you know beyond the shadow of a doubt without merely accepting the "new testament" at face value from the beginning?
We can look at the three HUNDRED plus prophecies given in the Hebrew Bible and discover that they were fulfilled by the historical Jesus
Correction: these prophecies were fulfilled according to the "new testament." But how do you know the "new testament" has the true and authentic interpretation of the messianic prophecies? THIS is what none of you chrstians ever explain.
(with the exception of those few future ones yet to be).
Until radical evengelical Protestantism those "future prophecies" were considered fulfilled "spiritually" in the church. So there's one departure from classical chrstianity already. What's the reason for not departing all the way?
Do you actually think that Christians just invented their religion based upon nothing? Jesus of Nazareth was a REAL person, he rose from the dead after his brutal crucifixion - witnessed by hundreds of people, he performed miracles
But none of this proves he was the messiah. It only "proves" it if you accept from the outset that chrstianity and the "new testament" (and their interpretation of the Hebrew Bible) is true.
I don't suppose you've ever read the thirteenth chapter of Deuteronomy?
and his teachings were based on the SPIRIT of the Law of Moses and the purpose of the Almighty in the affairs of His creation.
Once again, you are merely parroting the chrstian claims. You aren't proving them by the Word of G-d as already given to Israel. Does it take an "addition" to the Bible (a la the "book of mormon") to justify chrstianity? If so, then it's a false religion!
Furthermore your concept of "the 'spirit' of the Law" is very anti-Torah and liberal. Liberals have always attacked the literal commandments of the Torah in favor of a more "spiritual" interpretation. And even here you continue to simply repeat chrstian claims. Repeating chrstian claims proves nothing. Israel was not given the "new testament" at Sinai. It was given the Torah. And it is only the Torah that can justify chrstian claims, not writings produced by chrstians themselves based on their own assumptions.
You also commit the cardinal chrstian sin of not understanding that the Torah is not temporary or chr*stological but the reason the universe was created. The Prophets are on a lesser level than the Torah, not a greater one. All authentic prophets are completely subject to the Torah. Any prophet who claims it will be replaced by something else (or "be fulfilled" as chrstians dishonestly put it) is false.
Not everyone will believe and receive this truth - that was also foretold - and Jesus would be rejected by His own people - another one of those prophecies. But one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
And once again, just more of the same.
You can't prove chrstianity by merely parroting its claims--unless you take the TaNa"KH out of christian "bibles" and stop claiming your religion fulfills it. If chrstianity fulfills the Torah (G-d forbid!!!) then the Torah will say so. Prove what you say by the Torah itself or stop making your claims.
Paul got his instruction from the risen Christ. His writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit, any 'bias' in them was a result of that inspiration. Or is God subject to man in that He can prompt, but man makes the final decision on what is written?
Faith
Well, I said that more as a means of not having to jump through all your definitive hoops again, but alas....
Genesis 3:15 is the authority, The Creator elected His holy prophet Moses to pen. Moses did not pen first hand account. How disappointed will you be when you discover that Moses is a Christian?
Chrstianity claims Psalm 22 refers to J*sus. Why do you accept chrstianity's claim at face value? The claim is not actually in the text of the TaNa"KH but imported from outside.
David is the key, the root out from which was foretold the coming of the Saviour.
ARG! How do you know the Tree of Life is J*sus? Genesis doesn't say it's J*sus--the "new testament" does. Why do you accept the "new testament" and its interpretation of the Hebrew Bible from the very outset? You don't even subject it to proof; you accept it as a given! Can't you see how fallacious that is?
Deuteronomy 32 is the song the over-comers will be singing. And The Creator plainly states there are two rocks. Regardless of what any human claims The Creator did foretell all things, and obviously He does not force any or all to believe or accept. It is an individuals decision. None believed Jeremiah when he warned the king of Babylon was coming to take captive, and yet it happened. We are just going through a repeat of similar events and the majority of the peoples do not have a clue where in the course of events we are this day. Why we are even revisiting the acts of Sodom and Gomorrah as was foretold.
Why do you even care what Christians believe?
For myself, to guard against their becoming muslim, either through coercion or lacking the true courage of their own faith to resist.
Well you do have a point given so few Christians consider the Ten Commandments still stand. This nation really opened up the flood gates to lawlessness, when she cowered over the public posting of the Ten. It does appear the walls have been breached and the flood of lies are swallowing US up. I just keep remembering the lesson of Gideon.
There are enough prophecies in the Old Testament about Jesus that have come true that the odds of Jesus not being who the NT claims he is is a statistically impossible...
You can't prove chrstianity by merely parroting its claims--
We don't set out to prove anything...
I can only cite my personal situation...Other may have experienced the same...
I was desperate...Things had fallen apart...I can't say that I considered suicide as an option but I can see where some people might in that situation...
I didn't know anything about the grace that God has offered all men but looking back, that is what led me to call out to God...'God help me'...
I didn't have any faith...I guess I had desperate hope...God didn't answer me immediately...Although I experienced some sort of peace...
A couple of nights later, I was out wandering in my truck and when I came up on a sign that said Church, my truck veered into the parking lot...I walked and shortly after was introduced to Jesus...
It was Jesus who gave me faith...No need for proof...
And interestingly, the few months prior to my crash, I was drawn to the bible...I'd pick it up and try to read it and it made no real sense to me...And now it makes more sense than anything else I've ever read...
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
unless you take the TaNa"KH out of christian "bibles" and stop claiming your religion fulfills it. If chrstianity fulfills the Torah (G-d forbid!!!) then the Torah will say so.
No...There is no prophecy of Christianity in the Old Testament...The prophecy in the Old Testament is the coming Messiah who suffered, and then the Kingdom with the King on the Throne of David...The 'church' which is in between those two was kept a secret...A mystery...
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Don't know if that gives any insight to your question, hopefully it does...
Catholics agree explicitly with all of those things.
Luther's 'teachings' are Paul's teaching, straight up.
Your opinion, not mine. Mine is that Luther misinterprets Paul rather dramatically. He rips Paul out of a Hebrew covenantal context and tries to force him into a legal/forensic one. He fails to understand Paul in the context of Paul's own argument against the Judaizers, and instead interprets "works of the law" in a way that Paul did not at all mean it, as is self-evident from the context of Paul's remarks.
Have you ever actually considered the Catholic / Orthodox answer to Luther? Listen to Scott Hahn's "Romanism in Romans" sometime. You might be surprised at how far off Luther really was.
Council of Trent CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
And yet that is in opposition to what scripture teaches.
Romans 3:20-26 is explicit. Law and Gospel is a problem for Catholic teaching and has been since the Catholic church sought secular power. Similarly, Catholic teaching has obscured the process of justification of sinners by insisting that man has a part in it, rather than God calling, God's gift of grace, God's gift of faith.
I was baptized and early raised Lutheran (MS).
Studied Catholicism at 12 with my mom so she could sing in their choir. Text was “Father Smith Instructs Jackson”, which I still have.
Looked at Buddhism in Vietnam.
Sang myself in the Episcopal Church as a paid baritone. Very rich musical tradition therein.
Finally spent a bit more than a year (full Torah cycle) in a small synagogue and cut my teeth in Judaism, which I would these days claim for my religious outlook. Though not of a Jewish mother born, and not really being a joiner, I nonetheless do take Torah very seriously...in combination with mathematics - which I also believe Holy - and the scientific method, which these days, so rankly abused by charlatans, still stands sturdy.
Not sure really why I detail all this, but to say and to satisfy myself as to how interesting this part of my life has been, praise God.
Despite the headline—which, to me, makes about as much sense as, "Are the words of Jesus more important than the rest of the New Testament?"—the article is actually pretty good, for apologetics. I'm sure the exercise was profitable for the writer.
Thanks for pinging me.
We owe the New Testament (NT) revelation to Jews such as the twelve apostles and Paul, what makes you think you know more than the Jews who gave us the NT?
Moreover, you are not even a Jew, for heavens sakes, you are but a Gentile from Tennessee claiming your are a Jew, you are but a so called "Noahide."
What makes you think you are the last word on the Jewish written NT, coming on this Christian forum thinking your anti-Christianism is the last word on the NT?
What makes you think you know more than the Jews who gave us the NT? Who lived two thousand years closer to the Jewish-Christian milieu that gave us the NT, than you?
Are you that conceited that you actually think yourself superior to these other Jews (the apostles and Paul)?
“Paul got his instruction from the risen Christ. His writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit, any ‘bias’ in them was a result of that inspiration. Or is God subject to man in that He can prompt, but man makes the final decision on what is written?”
The Catholic Church has said the same thing about all their decrees by the Pope for almost 2000 yrs. And their influence had a lot to do with what scriptures are considered worthy of the Bible.
I believe in the Bible as divinely inspired and as being the word of God.
Were the translations divinely inspired?
Which ones?
Was the cannon process accurate?
Were all the ecumenical councils accurate in what the rejected and what they affirmed as being of God?
Were the oral communications of the word prior to written documentation accurate?
And finally, if you are not connected to the Holy Spirit as you read scripture, how do you know that your interpretation of the words is correct?
I am not saying that I know the answer to all or even any of the above questions, but they must be addressed as you search for the truth in the Bible. My personal journey has been a constantly revised work in process as I read the same scriptures over and over and pray for guidance. I must say it has been quite an journey as there are many levels of truth and understanding in the same scripture.
I don't think they are important questions, the Bible says God calls, God gives grace, God gives faith in no uncertain terms. Rather than rely on my understanding, I will trust the God that saves me.
So here we have a contradiction in the Gospels between those passages which seem authentic and those which do not. To a Jew studying the Gospels the contradiction is manifest, and ... the issue widens as he considers the religion based upon the Gospels, Christianity itself, with its mixture of Jewish, non-Jewish, and anti-Jewish elements.
The Pharisee's "beef" with Jesus WRT healing on the Sabbath was NOT because he accused them of making healing on the Sabbath a wrong, but instead his showing them to be hypocrites and this incident being but one of many reasons why they plotted to kill him. Here is one telling of that incident:
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’a you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. (Matthew 12:1-14)
Another incident was told in Luke 13:10-17:
On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”
When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.
I will continue to read this work and give my comments as time permits, but I hope you don't think I would change my views about my Savior, Jesus Christ. Myriad works have been composed the past two millenia that endeavor to disprove Jesus the Christ and Christianity based upon belief in and following Him. Mr. Maccoby is but one of many whom, I believe, are flailing against God and will not prevail. Christianity is a FAITH - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
“I will trust the God that saves me.”
I hear that all the time and wonder why so many Christians are still stuck at the same level of spirituality and have not grown.
They treat Jesus as a lifeguard that can pluck them out when they are drowning and save them. Which he can do, but that is not His desire. If it were, why did He even bother to teach us everything in the scriptures?
Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher who came to teach us how to swim so that we need not fear drowning. He wanted us to be like Him. That’s what communion is all about.
Which would you sooner have, a lifeguard that waits until you are drowning to pluck you out, or a lifeguard that teaches you how to swim so you can not only save yourself but help others to swim as well. People hold onto their wealth and possessions, carrying so much baggage that it’s laughable. When the water rises they will still hold onto them and ask Jesus to save them, and their possessions. Sorry folks it doesn’t work that way. Remember what Jesus said to the man with wealth who wanted to follow Him...
The treasure has been dangled in front of us, but everyone wants to wait for the treasure to come to us!
I’ve watched the Holy Spirit move into people and turn their lives upside down as though they were Job. You can’t reach for the Holy Spirit and hold onto sin as it will rip you apart.
Define what you mean.
Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher who came to teach us how to swim so that we need not fear drowning.
He was called Rabbi, but it was a secondary MOS. He was and is the Son of God. That is how His Word introduces Him. The Son has freed me, so I don't fear drowning. I know that the promises of God are true.
You can’t reach for the Holy Spirit and hold onto sin as it will rip you apart.
I couldn't reach for the Holy Spirit on my own, nor would I have wanted Him. God called me and by His grace through faith converted me when I was still an enemy of God. And yet those with the Holy Spirit do sin. Even with a heart for God and a mind on Him, flesh and the world will assail a Christian until death. That problem is the same Paul wrestled with and is the same in all Christians. Else there would be no need for repentance.
The notions of faith, belief, trust, rely, hope centered on Christ's redemptive work is Christianity, the rest is human vanity.
Heck no, I wouldn’t expect it to change your views on your Savior, but am gratified that a Christian would even give it a look. Would it deepen your faith even further would be cause for great celebration to my thinking.
‘Sorta like me with Christian radio. There are enough appeals to The Father and solid ethical foundation to keep me listening about 85% of the time. I may be agnostic with respect to Jesus and nitpick occasionally about his various approaches to The Law, but basically, I like him. To paraphrase Eric Blore in ‘The Road To Zanzibar’: “I bet he’d be fun to know.”
Jesus is the Savior who saves us from the penalty of our sins - eternal death/separation from God. His message was one of redemption as well as the way to live our remaining years on this earth in ways that bring glory and honor to Almighty God. The fatal error in your example is in saying that Jesus "teaches us to swim" as if we can save ourselves WITHOUT His sacrifice for our sins. We cannot, as only by the shedding of blood is there remission of sins. He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy.. (Titus 3:5) and But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. (Romans 4:5-7)
Jesus is our lifeguard because that is the ONLY way we can be saved - we cannot save ourselves.
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