For example:
I'd love for you to address some of the other things that I mentioned, though. :)
Posted on 01/14/2014 12:05:53 PM PST by matthewrobertolson
The Old Testament & the New Testament
The Old Testament is the shadow of the New (Hebrews 10:1), but still useful (Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:11). To disregard it is to blaspheme. [link]
Jesus Christ not only fulfilled the OT (Galatians 3:13-14, Hebrews 8:6, 9:10), but also John the Baptist's ministry (John 1:6-8). [link]
Faith, Works, and Salvation
"But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves." - James 1:22 [link]
Those who believe that Abraham was saved by "faith alone" in Genesis 15:6 should read about his prior works in Genesis 12-14. [link]
God did not call us to be impure, but to be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:7), and He will judge us accordingly (1 Peter 1:17). [link]
Without sanctification, no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). We must be made perfect (v. 23, Revelation 21:27). Purgatory is a blessing. [link]
It is dangerous to emphasize "safety and joy" or "eternal security" in the context of salvation. (1 Corinthians 4:4-5, Philippians 2:12) [link]
On John 15:12-17: Jesus Christ came for everyone, but salvation is for His "friends," and we can be one of them only if we follow His commands. [link]
The Mass & the Eucharist
Jesus Christ knew that many would argue over the Eucharist (see John 6:60-66) because of the OT (Genesis 9:3-4, Deuteronomy 12:15-16). But it's real! [link]
John 6:53 (Communion) is reminiscent of Exodus 12 (Passover). If we do not partake of the Lamb, then we are at risk. [link]
Malachi 1:11 points out the importance of having incense and the Eucharist ("a grain offering"). These are two things that set Catholics apart from Protestants, and they both seem to be mandated by Scripture. [link]
The Eucharist, a gift from God (Revelation 16:6), shows that we are with the Church. "Foreigners" and the "unworthy" are not (Exodus 12:43, 1 Corinthians 11:27). [link]
Infant Baptism
The idea that an infant cannot have faith is mistaken. John the Baptist recognized Jesus Christ from within the womb (Luke 1:39-44)! [link]
The Leadership of St. Peter
When it comes to Petrine primacy, Isaiah 22:20-22 foreshadows Matthew 16:18-19. [link]
On turning the other cheek
In 1 Maccabees 2:15-41, some refuse to defend themselves on the Sabbath and are slaughtered. Devout, but also naive. Sometimes, you must fight. [link]
I was plugging along and then came to the purgatory piece and said “oh boy, lost me.”
"The Eucharist, a gift from God (Revelation 16:6), shows that we are with the Church."
Now the context of the Revelation 16:6:
Revelation 16:
4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.”
7 And I heard another from the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”
This is a punishment and not a blessing. Has nothing to do with the Eucharist (Thanksgiving).
I would not expect a Catholic agency to put out such "bulleted" verses out of context to put forth Roman doctrine. I mean only fundamentalists jigsaw puzzle verses together to build a theology...right?
Yeah. Someone just might get the idea that they are free in Christ.
Can't have any of that freedom stuff going on now, can we?
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified>/b>.
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
It's a done deal Y'all. None of the purgatory nonsense.
I’m consistantly amazed and the division, from the devil, that many partake of here at FR, both Catholic & Protestant.
I agree with most all the points, but I am not Catholic.
Consentrate on our similarities folks! Do you beliueve in salvation thru Christ alone? Is He the Way, the Truth, and the Light?
That is what is really important!
Jesus says.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But Catholics say: No, no, no, it’s the real flesh that we have to eat.
The author posts Phillippians 2:12 but should keep going to verse 13...In fact should have the reader go to the complete chapter passage.
Verse 13:
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
So much for “jigsaw puzzle” hermeneutics.
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Catholics do stumble at that faith thing don’t they.
I’ll let Jesus answer that one.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Revelation 16:6 is clearly showing those who deny God and curse Him to be drinking blood that came about by judgment from God. There is no hint of Eucharist nor church or anything ‘good’ about that verse other than judgment.
“The Mass within Scripture” in Revelation is an interesting hermeneutic. You would find more verses to support your church hermeneutic in the Torah. In fact, and not being a wise guy, on other threads the Mormons and WCOG do the same.
If you can find an epistle which says “Foolish Galatians, don’t you know Timothy addressed the proper liturgy and vestments on his last visit?” Then I might start get to thinking on it:)
However, using prophetic books to justify church practices is a bit concerning. To do so one would have to apply all of them. Meaning is there a ceremony of some harlot riding a beast during the mass (Revelation 17)? Of course not, and I hope you guys don’t get any ideas on including that:) Plus if Revelation is a movitation for the mass, perhaps I would have seen a statue of Jesus Christ on a white horse marching to battle.
Now the prayers, and calls to repentance all those are clear and literal for all ages.
Almost forgot. In Revelation 2-3 most of the churches are called to repent:
Repent: metanoeo (G3340):I.to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent; II.to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins.
Penitence comes from the same root word of repent. However, the Roman Catholic definition includes prayers or works to amend for the sins comitted. You can extract penitence from Revelation but it is clearly stating repentance (definition from Greek lexicon above).
I agree.
“Yet, CynicalBear, you didn’t mention John 14:12.”
You didn’t mention John 15:16, Php 2:13, Rom 8:30 and John 6:37-39:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Rom_8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Good works are the result of salvation, not its cause, which all those who have been given by the Father to the Son produce infallibly. Though, this does not mean they will ever be sinless:
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Of course, who says different? We don't take Jesus Christ with us to a brothel. Sorry for the extreme example, but some here think so. Faith is not comatose. Faith is a verb an action. Faith implies faithfulness. Trust and Obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to Trust and Obey.
Here is another example to drive the point across:
Romans 10:
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Important note bolded above. If we confess Jesus Christ as LORD...LORD means something and is not just a title for prayer. Lord (kyrios) means: he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord. We belong to him. He is the master and we are the slave (doulos). Most use the softer "bond-servant" or "servant" but the Greek it is slave. A slave obeys the commands of his master. We obey the commands of our Master Jesus Christ. He calls His followers brethren, however nowhere do we see an apostle or disciple call Jesus Christ anything but Lord or Master.
So yes those who have been Blood bought born again must obey their Master Jesus Christ. Those who are Blood bought born again have had hearts of stone replaced with hearts of flesh and therefore their focus and desire is to serve their Master on His terms.
Jesus Christ is not the "bull pen" to be called when we need Him. No indeed, He is the Manager of the team and we do and play the way He rosters us.
That was the point in posting verse 13. I don't know what strawman you are beating on, but your responses have a lot of "guessing what the other person is thinking" to them.
What translation of the Scriptures calls Jesus “LORD”?
“Do you not know that it is impossible to have faith without the Holy Spirit? That’s important to know. If you know that, you should know that Philippians 2:13 is in perfect continuity with what I was saying.’
What you are saying is that salvation is given as debt for labor provided. Note, from the CCC:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
We can “then” merit the graces needed for “sanctification.... and for the attainment of eternal life,” amongst temporal blessings.
Compare with the scripture:
Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
And Augustine, whom you quoted:
“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace.” (Augustine, Sermon 293)
To Augustine, the entire work of salvation belongs to God. While man is not passive in sanctification, his salvation, and his perseverance, is entirely out of his hands, but is God’s gift:
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)
Note, the “whole work” belongs to God, in His reading of the sentence “It is not of him that wills, or him that runs,” and, again, “not of works”:
“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)
“And further, should any one be inclined to boast, not indeed of his works, but of the freedom of his will, as if the first merit belonged to him, this very liberty of good action being given to him as a reward he had earned, let him listen to this same preacher of grace, when he says: “For it is God which works in you, both to will and to do of His own good pleasure;” (Php 2:13) and in another place: “So, then, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” (Rom 9:16) Now as, undoubtedly, if a man is of the age to use his reason, he cannot believe, hope, love, unless he will to do so, nor obtain the prize of the high calling of God unless he voluntarily run for it; in what sense is it not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, except that, as it is written, “the preparation of the heart is from the Lord?” Otherwise, if it is said, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, because it is of both,” that is, both of the will of man and of the mercy of God, so that we are to understand the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” as if it meant the will of man alone is not sufficient, if the mercy of God go not with it—then it will follow that the mercy of God alone is not sufficient, if the will of man go not with it; and therefore, if we may rightly say, it is not of man that wills, but of God that shows mercy, because the will of man by itself is not enough, why may we not also rightly put it in the converse way: “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” because the mercy of God by itself does not suffice? Surely, if no Christian will dare to say this, “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” lest he should openly contradict the apostle, it follows that the true interpretation of the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” is that the whole work belongs to God, who both makes the will of man righteous, and thus prepares it for assistance, and assists it when it is prepared.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 32)
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