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Are we still under a Law?
Answering Protestants ^ | 4 December 2013 | Matthew Olson

Posted on 12/04/2013 3:55:01 AM PST by matthewrobertolson

"For as man, disobeying, drew death upon himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting. For God has given us a law and holy commandments; and every one who keeps these can be saved, and, obtaining the resurrection, can inherit incorruption." - St. Theophilus of Antioch, to Autolycus (Book 2, Chapter 27) [link]

Are we still under a Law? Yes. However, we are not under the Mosaic one.

The Mosaic Law worked for a while, but ceased to be the best option after the "time of reformation" (Hebrews 9:10). At this time, Christ came to redeem humanity (Hebrews 9:15) and to universalize the Law and open it up to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28, Romans 11:11), which He could have done within Judaism if the Jewish leaders had not rejected Him (He is "the stone which the builders rejected" - Mark 12:10). Due to His work, we are now under "a better covenant" (Hebrews 8:6).

None of this means that we are now apart from a Law.

Christ commanded us to "treat people the same way [we] want them to treat [us], for this is the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12). He said to do something, and then gave as His reason that it is the intent of the Law. He also positively referenced the Law in Luke 10:25-28. A lawyer asked what is required to "inherit eternal life," and Christ asked the man to look to the Law. The lawyer said that the Law commands us to "love [Him] with all [our] heart, and with all [our] soul, and with all [our] strength, and with all [our] mind; and [our] neighbor as [ourself]." Christ replied, "You have answered correctly; do this and you will live."

In Mark 10, a wealthy man asks Christ what is required to reach Heaven, and Christ cites the Ten Commandments (v. 17-19). The man says that he already observes them, but Christ corrects him and cleverly makes the point that the man must practice charity, which the man, unfortunately, refuses (v. 20-22). Christ was not adding anything new to the Law, but was getting at the intent of it -- charity was already commanded in the Old Testament (Proverbs 19:17, Proverbs 21:13, Sirach 29:8-13)!

Paul realized that, because a man "hung on a tree" (here, "tree" would equal a wooden cross) is cursed according to the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 21:22-23) and Christ most certainly did not deserve to be cursed, at least some parts of it are no longer binding. Christ both took upon Himself the penalties for sins committed under the Mosaic Law and opened "the blessing of Abraham" and "the promise of the Spirit" up to the Gentiles (Galatians 3:13-14).

Paul did not, however, reject the necessity of good works. When Paul denounces "works of the Law," he is referring to things such as ritual circumcision. Passages like Romans 3:27-30 and Galatians 3:27-29, which are surrounded by statements that seem to advocate "faith alone," are key to understanding Paul's thoughts. Paul placed emphasis on the facts that Jews and Gentiles 1) serve the same God, 2) share a common heritage, and 3) are judged by the same general standards -- we are all "one in Christ Jesus". That is partially why he so strongly insisted on the universality of Christ, the importance of faith, and the worthlessness of divisive cultural practices (e.g. circumcision).

Does the existence of a Law always "nullify the grace of God" or mean that "Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2:21)? Absolutely not. First, it makes His grace remarkably plain. If He did not provide us with a path to redemption and salvation, then His justice would demand our damnation. To provide us with a Law is merciful of Him. Second, it is still only through Christ that anyone can attain salvation. "[N]o one comes to the Father but through [Him]" (John 14:6).

Truly, "what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God" (1 Corinthians 7:19) and "unless [our] righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, [we] will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20).

This all undermines the idea that we are not bound by a Law. The Law will not fail (Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17). We are still under a Law, minus Mosaic cultural practices. "[H]e who does the will of [God]" will reach Heaven (Matthew 7:21), and God will say, "Depart from me," to those who "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).

"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." - Romans 3:31

(All verses are from the NASB translation, except for the passage from Sirach, which is from the RSV translation.)

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Moses with the Ten Commandments by Rembrandt (1659).

Moses with the Ten Commandments by Rembrandt (1659).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; gospel; jesus; law

1 posted on 12/04/2013 3:55:01 AM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

Not sure that cleared anything up, LOL!


2 posted on 12/04/2013 4:16:47 AM PST by Tennessean4Bush (An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist fears this is true.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Sure we are bound by the moral law, but not for salvation. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness! You cannot achieve righteousness by law-keeping. Salvation is by grace alone.

Romans 10:1-11

10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)


3 posted on 12/04/2013 4:24:52 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: matthewrobertolson

We are now under a new covenant, which could not be fully implemented until the temple - the focus of the old covenant - was destroyed. This covenant returns us to the right relationship Adam had with God before the fall: (Rev 2:7)

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”

This new Church is now the new bride of Christ (Rev 21):

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Once we face the “death” and re-birth in baptism, we never face death again. The second death is for those outside the grace of Christ - the lake of fire.


4 posted on 12/04/2013 4:30:11 AM PST by impactplayer
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To: matthewrobertolson

I do not disagree with most said here but i believe that the man lacking charity misrepresents what actually was said

Read Mark 10 21- 22
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Jesus obviously believed him to be a man he could count on so he was inviting him to be a disciple, no where does it say he had no charity.


5 posted on 12/04/2013 5:28:02 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: matthewrobertolson
Many words to say nothing at all. I can not even understand how lost the church in America is. I live inside the Law as did Yeshua and I also hold him as the Messiah and soon coming King. I live as a Jew, eat as a Jew and celebrate all of the Feasts of the Lord. I follow the Law on the day of rest and worship starting at sun down on Friday just as Yeshua did. You can change G-D's words anyway you like but I will not stand before him and say I just fix your word a little.
6 posted on 12/04/2013 5:44:00 AM PST by lostboy61 (Lock and Load and stand your ground!)
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To: matthewrobertolson

I like to point to various churches in the USA teaching that we are “not under Law” as a source for our increasingly lawless society. While I think that the article does an excellent job of clarifying the Christian’s obligation to obey God’s Law, there is a very thin line between “under Grace” and “lawlessness”. How can Christians serve as an example to society if we disobey God’s (and man’s) law?


7 posted on 12/04/2013 5:45:00 AM PST by STYRO (War sucks. Living in slavery sucks even worse.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

This is to be expected. When you move away from God there is no objective basis for “right” or “wrong”.


8 posted on 12/04/2013 5:50:55 AM PST by circlecity
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To: matthewrobertolson

Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law.


9 posted on 12/04/2013 8:02:56 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law.

Only for those who want to justify salvation by the works of the law...

Some commentators have made artificial divisions of the Old Testament law into civil, ceremonial and moral categories. While this can be advantageous for studying the assortment of laws, these categories are not found in the Scripture. Different teachers can disagree with each other as where one division ends and the other begins.

The Old Testament covenant and commands cannot be subdivided from one's own conditional point of view. The Rabbis saw the covenant as a unit of 613 commandments consisting of 365 negative and 248 positive. While the law was perceived to be made of parts it was always understood as a whole. It is wrong to divide the law into categories that the word of God does not. It gives a false view that these are biblical divisions when in fact they are not. What happens is that some are discarded and others are continued to be a practiced something the bible does not teach.

The word "law" (Greek: nomos) can apply to the Ten Commandments, the statutes and decrees given at Sinai, the five books of Moses, or the entire Old Testament, it all depends on the context it is used in. Paul's most recurrent use of the law has to do with ALL the divine requirements given to Israel, and there were 613 not just 10. On Mount Sinai God gave Moses 2 tablets of stone, which contained the "Written Law" 10 commandments by the finger of God Himself and God also spoke to Moses the "Oral Law" consisting of 603 commandments to Moses. These were later written down and put in the side of the ark. All the law is called the Mosaic Law, as Jesus often referred to it; it totals 613 commandments. Those who observe and perpetuate the law today want to discard the 603 and live by only 10.

The real truth about the matter...

10 posted on 12/04/2013 9:42:17 AM PST by Iscool
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To: matthewrobertolson; Iscool; daniel1212; metmom; Gamecock; All

The return of the blog pimp! Let’s have at it:

“In Mark 10, a wealthy man asks Christ what is required to reach Heaven, and Christ cites the Ten Commandments (v. 17-19). The man says that he already observes them, but Christ corrects him and cleverly makes the point that the man must practice charity, which the man, unfortunately, refuses (v. 20-22).”


Christ here is not merely calling for charity so that the young man can complete the law and get to heaven. Christ is calling for him to give up EVERYTHING, all riches, his profession, everything, and live a life entirely devoted to Christ in order to get into heaven:

“The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
(Mat 19:20-24)

Considering your pimping your blog instead of taking a vow of poverty and serving as a missionary on the streets, I think we can safely conclude that, by your own standards, you’re going straight to hell. Such was the response of the disciples:

“When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
(Mat 19:25-26)

What Christ was responding to was not a different law, supposedly separate from the Mosaic law as you fantasize, under which to receive salvation as a reward; He was responding to the vanity of the young man who thought that he had kept the whole law “from his youth,” so he raised the ante, in other words, to show the vanity of it, since “for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20).

“Paul realized that, because a man “hung on a tree” (here, “tree” would equal a wooden cross) is cursed according to the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 21:22-23) and Christ most certainly did not deserve to be cursed, at least some parts of it are no longer binding. Christ both took upon Himself the penalties for sins committed under the Mosaic Law and opened “the blessing of Abraham” and “the promise of the Spirit” up to the Gentiles (Galatians 3:13-14).”


Paul does not differentiate the 10 commandments from the Mosaic law, as he is quite clear that unless you keep the ENTIRETY of the law, every commandment, every jot, then you are cursed:

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Which James echos in his epistle:

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

And this he says not referring to merely circumcision, but to failing to love your neighbor as yourself in “respecting persons.” In other words, in honoring people for their superior dress or wealth instead of treating all equally.

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”
(Jas 2:8-9)

Thus you are undone all at once!

“Paul did not, however, reject the necessity of good works. When Paul denounces “works of the Law,” he is referring to things such as ritual circumcision. Passages like Romans 3:27-30 and Galatians 3:27-29, which are surrounded by statements that seem to advocate “faith alone,” are key to understanding Paul’s thoughts. Paul placed emphasis on the facts that Jews and Gentiles 1) serve the same God, 2) share a common heritage, and 3) are judged by the same general standards — we are all “one in Christ Jesus”. That is partially why he so strongly insisted on the universality of Christ, the importance of faith, and the worthlessness of divisive cultural practices (e.g. circumcision).”


Absurdities, since Paul is not speaking of the ritual law. He places the Gentiles under a law of their own, under which they are condemned, entirely separate from the law of Moses (but including the same moral law):

“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)”
(Rom 2:12-15)

And from the very chapter you claim that is dealing with keeping the circumcision, not eating pork, etc, Paul marks us all guilty, both Jews and Gentiles alike, of

1) Unbelief, neither seeking God nor understanding Him (11)
2) Having a throat that is an open sepulcher, used for lying and other mischief (13)
3) Being full of cursing and bitterness(14)
4) Having feet swift to murder (15)
5) Having destruction and misery in our ways (16)
6) Not knowing the way to peace (17)
7) Having no fear of God, (18)

To which Paul concludes, immediately after in verse 19:

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”(Rom 3:19-20)

Thus, if what you say is true, that Paul is referring to “divisive cultural practices” when he says “under the law,” and not the moral law, then it is the mutual prohibition against murdering, thieving, lying, etc., which are merely cultural practices and not binding, at least if we take your claims seriously.

“Does the existence of a Law always “nullify the grace of God” or mean that “Christ died needlessly” (Galatians 2:21)? Absolutely not. First, it makes His grace remarkably plain. If He did not provide us with a path to redemption and salvation, then His justice would demand our damnation. To provide us with a Law is merciful of Him. Second, it is still only through Christ that anyone can attain salvation. “[N]o one comes to the Father but through [Him]” (John 14:6).”


It certainly does nullify grace, since grace to be grace must be gratuitous, as Augustine beautifully puts it:

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)

And Paul:

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This is what grace actually means. It is not earned by works, but is given despite of them.

The stuff about salvation still being through “Christ” is simply double-speak, since, in reality, Christ is only giving you the “path”, in your system, to salvation, and you must still do your part to walk on it in order to receive salvation as a reward for your good works. IOW, it is debt for labor given.


11 posted on 12/04/2013 6:21:25 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

There are 2ways to be saved.. keep the law PERFECTLY ..every jot and tittle or grace..


12 posted on 12/05/2013 5:44:32 PM PST by RnMomof7
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