Morality and economics, Pope Francis, and Rush Limbaugh

Renew America ^ | November 30, 2013 | Matt C. Abbott

[michaelmas]

John Paul II ‘destroyed’ communism because it denied the sacredness of human life.

So can a consumer driven culture like ours.

[michaelmas]

I think this shows that a lot of conservatives (many of whom are my own friends) use the Catholic Church just like the libs do. They’re okay with the Pope when he’s condemning abortion and gay ‘marriage’ but when he preaches that those with wealth have a responsibility toward the poor the guns come out and accusations of socialism and Marxism are thrown about.

As far as I can tell there is no difference in philosophy in this exhortation by Francis than there was in the encyclical, Charity in Truth by Benedict.

[michaelmas]

Government action is not synonymous with tyranny. Government action that is cruel and oppressive is tyranny. Your logic causes some problems. I assume you are an anarchist or libertarian. If so, I’d probably agree with 98% of your opinions.

[michaelmas]

I think our bishops should be more focused on local problems than national or international politics. Maybe when they can convince the majority of their own parishioners to actually believe Catholic doctrine their voices on other matters can be taken more seriously.

[michaelmas]

Amen.

[Redmen4ever]

Yes, Jesus said we are to be poor in spirit. He and the Bible say many things all of which have to be considered simultaneously. Didn’t the very same Jesus who gave the sermon on the mount also say this:

“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” (Matthew 6:21)

In my opinion, the power of the sermon on the mount is its turning of the world upside down, taking something normally considered negatively (”poor in spirit”) and turning it upside down so as to reveal a wonderful truth. So, there’s a poetry to the verse, so that the apparent literal contradiction of this part of the sermon on the mount with Matthew 6:21 is of no consequence.

[stanne]

It makes sense.

[Nifster]

and that is not what he said

[JSteff]

Here is some words closer to what I believe.

"No economic system in history has alleviated more poverty, generated more opportunity, and helped more formerly poor people become rich than capitalism,"

"The essence of capitalism goes to the core of Catholic teaching: the personal freedom of every person. Capitalism is freedom to risk, freedom to work, freedom to save, freedom to retain the fruits of one's labors, freedom to own property and freedom to give to charity."

Napolitano says that, contrary to the Pope's view, free markets are too stifled by government control and regulation. He adds that arguments for the redistribution of wealth go against traditional Catholic social teachings that call on believers to "become our brothers' keepers" through personal charity."

"The Pope seems to prefer common ownership of the means of production, which is Marxist, or private ownership and government control, which is fascist, or government ownership and government control, which is socialist. All of those failed systems lead to ashes, not wealth," he writes."

"What shall we do about the Pope and economics? We should pray for his faith and understanding and for a return to orthodoxy. That means the Holy Mother Church under the Vicar of Christ — saving souls, not pocketbooks."

"Andrew Napolitano. former New Jersey Superior Court judge and senior judicial analyst for Fox News "

As a consrvative that makes more sense to me than what the Pope said.
How about?
Marxism will not bring us closer to curing what is wrong with the world and our country... capitalism has and always will. The founders knew it before there as a Marxism as a religion held by so many in the world who are misguided. Marxism has killed far more than capitalism has ever helped.

[ravenwolf]

If so, I’d probably agree with 98% of your opinions.

---

There are several different definitions of tyranny, one being a government that can do what ever they want to do, they do not have to be physically cruel

In the case of the U.S the constitution forbids them the power to do certain things but if they can force their will upon the people in spite of the law it is tyranny.

I don,t really know if i am a libertarian or an anarchist, but again there are a lot of different views on what an anarchist is.

[annalex]

[H]e did say the poor in spirit would

In fact, just poor. "In spirit" is the adjective of "blessed" in Matthew, it is not their in Luke's Gospel. Of course, it is not a way to sort out the saved and the condemned (see Matthew 25 second half for that), but combined with the "eye of the needle" pericope, it is quite clear that wealth is an impediment to salvation, and poverty assists it.

On your previous post, I agree. I love Rush, he did more than any living individual to popularize conservative ideas, but subtlety of thought is not his strength. He should stick to GOP propaganda and leave matters of faith to people who practice it.

[michaelmas]

Good points. I would say that being poor removes an obstacle to the practice of virtue. Having wealth on the other hand provides a different opportunity for the practice of virtue.

Yes, I’m a conservative, generally I’m for the free market, I listen to Rush and vote Republican, usually, and I’d like for he and Palin and the rest to stick to defending religous liberty rather than telling us Catholics how to interpret our Holy Father.

[michaelmas]

I agree. I think the Catholic principle of subsidiarity is largely forgotten in ‘social justice’ conversations such as this. In my opinion, the Church’s teachings lend themselves much closer to conservatism than liberalism. Sometimes it doesn’t seem like that is what the Church is saying but most of the time bishops who write documents for the Church, including this Pope come from completely different circumstances than you and I do here in the US. I’m sure it’s difficult to address problems in one document to people of all walks of life without sounding simultaneously too left or too right.

[michaelmas]

Have you been paying attention to everything else he’s said? Or for that matter the popes who came before him? Every time a pope discusses economics he’s preached virtue and selflessness.

[Nifster]

yes and yes… this pope is clearly anti free market and anti capitalist…the jesuits I am sure are very proud

[annalex]

Problem is, with the intellectual equipment Rush and Palin have got, we won’t get anything we haven’t gotten already. Those who like it, can go ahead and defend them. That’s you, Nifster.

[michaelmas]

Does your free market include workman’s comp? Assurances against insider trading? Any safeguards against fraud or exploitation?

I used to be for an entirely government-free free market but fallen beings that we are, greed and theft still happen. You’re setting up a false dichotomy. It doesn’t follow that the Pope is a Marxist or anti-capitalist because he thinks the government has a responsibility to the common good for its citizens.

Also, where in the exhortation does the Pope say that he is anti-capitalist?

Also, everything that comes from Rome does not stand alone in a vacuum. It has to be read in light of Catholic tradition, which includes the principle of subsidiarity, which is nearly the anti-thesis of Big Government.

[michaelmas]

Was Benedict XVI an anti-capitalist?

[michaelmas]

Agreed. But I guess they have to fill the airwaves with something.

[Nifster]

BWAHAHHAHAHHA now that’s really funny