Posted on 11/18/2013 3:07:47 PM PST by NYer
And, whether you like it or not, at least 50% of all Catholic scholars agree with me!
As an obviously different type of PROTESTant, can I ask, "Why?"?
Well, I don’t know, papertyger. You are determined to discuss apples. And I am discussing oranges. So you tell me.
Do you think the Pharisees were mollified by Jesus' refutation when they charged the Disciples of "harvesting on the Sabbath?"
Then it would appear I found something you didn't, and you've yet to discover something I did.
I find that hard to believe as I'm giving you credit for knowing what "obtuse" means.
I get attacked all the time, sometimes by name
Amen.
I feel sad that Catholics don’t believe they have Christ living within them 24/7/365 but have to go to some ritual to “get Him”.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
Galatians 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
I John 3:24: Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He has given us.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
How is that different than the RCC?
CCC424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. "To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ" [http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1D.HTM]
I'm sure there is an ODD number of angels that can dance on a pinhead.
Sorry, but I don't understand your response either. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean so I could respond meaningfully.
Truly you have a dizzying intellect, I read what you wrote and I am still baffled. Did your god dam me to hell for all eternity before I was even born despite any and all of my earthly actions or not. Throw me a bone here.
Jesus said it. I believe Him.
I can see that this thread has garnered a lot of negative attention.
It seems that it is not enough to let us be to discuss this incredible gift without their derision and ridicule and hateful jabs at this holy Sacrament.
For those here who whine that too many posts such as this are made, and who feel the need to come into the thread, rather than ignoring it, with snide comments....why do you continue to spew the same old tired and tiresome garbage.
These posts are very well thought out and written and there are many Catholics who enjoy the discussion about the Source and Summit of our faith.
There are also those who may not be Catholic who would like to lurk here and follow the discussion which is why they are not all made into caucus threads.
Last but not least, there are Catholics who need their faith strengthened by what they read here.
I don’t understand the need to come into the thread and post such things. Me thinks you do protest too much!
**I don’t understand the need to come into the thread and post such things. Me thinks you do protest too much!**
Ditto and double ditto!
Thank you again NYer for taking the time to bring this to FR so that I can easily see it and read it. I know it is difficult to constantly have to see such brutal responses to the beautiful mystery that is the Eucharist, but please know that what you do here is edifying for so many of us.
I know and believe the Lord knows that discord is not the desired outcome of your testimony. It is not you or what you write that sows the discord, it is those who cannot accept and believe that must lash out against what they are rejecting.
May God bless you for your faith.
“Truly you have a dizzying intellect, I read what you wrote and I am still baffled. Did your god dam me to hell for all eternity before I was even born despite any and all of my earthly actions or not. Throw me a bone here.”
I was quite clear, but to repeat myself, yes, when God predestinates the elect to salvation from before the foundation of the world, He also chooses not to predestinate others to salvation, and therefore destines them to condemnation.
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.”
(Rom 9:11-17)
As Augustine explains it, commenting on these verses:
“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)
Ouch so how do you know we’re not both
in the same boat?
I don’t disagree with you. I post in these threads as much for the lost unknown silent reader as anyone else.
Do you find it odd that when Matthew 16 comes up all we hear about are keys, stones and binding and loosing? What might I ask is the importance of the entire passage? Yes it is Peter’s
confession. The same confession the Father leads us to.
I think it's a different kind of "Christ" they get with the ritual versus what they get when they are baptized.
Scripture quite clearly says that we are filled with the Holy Spirit, He is within us as the "earnest" (guarantee) of our inheritance, will never leave us or forsake us and confirms that we are His because we have the Spirit of God within us, when we receive Jesus Christ by faith, believing and trusting in His sacrifice for us. We have the assurance that we belong to God and have been adopted into His family by His grace through faith. When we partake with other believers in the ordinance of the Lord's Supper, we are doing so as a remembrance of Him - as He said we should do - and as an outward confirmation that we have inwardly received the participation of His body and blood and have placed our faith in Him to save us and as a testimony of the one loaf all believers are part of: "Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.." (I Cor. 10:17)
In Catholicism, the Lord's Supper/Eucharist is received ONLY after a full confession is done, penance performed and a "state of grace" is achieved by eating the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ as a propitiatory sacrifice for those sins we just got done confessing. So, the Eucharist is part of the finishing touch, so to speak, of placing one in a state of grace so that heaven is attainable - at least as long as we remain sin-free. When we sin, the cycle begins anew. I really don't think Catholics view the presence of the Holy Spirit within each believer as equal to having Christ within them - which they get by going to Communion and which only lasts as long as until the next time they sin.
Historically, the Roman Catholic Church did not always view the Eucharist as expiatory. They did not see it as a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross that made participation critical to a person's very salvation. That doctrine developed over many centuries and just as we can see the doctrine of justification by faith change to faith AND works, so, too, did this sacrament change to be THE most essential part of the worship service and life of the Catholic.
Now, I'm sure there will quickly come the castigations, sarcasms and accusations that I wasn't properly catechized and that I didn't say it "right", that I don't know what I am talking about, and so forth, but this IS the way most Catholics view this part of their faith. It's why they can patronize and condescend to us non-Catholic Christians and say they feel sorry for us because we miss out on getting "God" in us like they do. In reality, I'd much rather have Christ within me 24/7/365 than once a week (if I'm a good girl) with no assurance of salvation. We can KNOW we HAVE eternal life and this is because we have believed in Christ and God's grace imputes HIS righteousness to our account through faith. We are saved NOT by the righteous things we do - like receive the Eucharist or getting baptized - but by grace and mercy given to us through faith. I think this is the far more wonderful truth!
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