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Reading the Papal Tea Leaves
The American Spectator ^ | 3.20.13 @ 6:10AM | George Neumayr

Posted on 09/20/2013 12:24:57 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler

Hans Kung: “I was overwhelmed by joy” Leonardo Boff: Francis is “more liberal” than commonly supposed. Unnamed Vatican diplomat: “the Traditional Latin Mass brigade is finished.” Greg Venable: ( told me very clearly that the Ordinariate was quite unnecessary and that the Church needs us as Anglicans.” Cardinal Mahony: “Don’t you feel the new energy, and being shared with one another?”

(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: conservative; francis; liberal; pope
In Pope Francis’s apparent emphasis on individual conscience . . . toned-down morality, and Seamless Garment-style prioritizing of poverty, peace, and the environment, Kung and company see a pope with whom they can at long last “dialogue.”
1 posted on 09/20/2013 12:24:57 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler

Amazing because the conservative catholics say the same thing.


2 posted on 09/20/2013 12:27:53 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

“Amazing because the conservative catholics say the same thing.”


For conservative Catholics, the Pope could come out tomorrow in drag and they would tell us its a bold statement against the evils of contraception.


3 posted on 09/20/2013 12:32:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: NYer

“Amazing because the conservative catholics say the same thing.”


For conservative Catholics, the Pope could come out tomorrow in drag and they would tell us its a bold statement against the evils of contraception.


4 posted on 09/20/2013 12:32:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: NYer

Oops, double clicked by accident.


5 posted on 09/20/2013 12:32:43 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Jeff Chandler
Pope condemns abortion as product of ‘throwaway culture’: “In all its phases and at every age, human life is always sacred and always of quality. And not as a matter of faith, but of reason and science.”

In terms of homosexual ‘marriage’ ... "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God," wrote Cardinal Bergoglio in a letter sent to the monasteries of Buenos Aires. "We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

The 'energy', 'joy' and 'liberal oneness' of Kung, Boff and Mahony is misguided and unfounded, methinks.

6 posted on 09/20/2013 12:38:01 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Yes, EWTN, Relevant Radio, Fr. Barron, Jimmy Akin, Fr. Z, and all the “conservative” Catholics are telling me how great and refreshing the new Pope is. I wonder if some of them can ever criticize the Pope, even in the slightest. I wonder what they would have done with some of the bad Popes of the past.


7 posted on 09/20/2013 12:39:49 PM PDT by LovedSinner
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Pssst .... your anti-Catholic underwear is showing. Just saying ...


8 posted on 09/20/2013 12:46:26 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Jeff Chandler

“Don’t you feel the new energy, and being shared with one another?”

Oh, yeah...a priest of our Diocese (Scranton, PA.) was arrested today after being caught in the act by a campus cop having sex with a 15 year old boy. The boy was a hustler procured via Craig’s List.

new energy—shared with one another.


10 posted on 09/20/2013 1:03:00 PM PDT by miserare (Fire Eric Holder!)
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To: NYer
Amazing because the conservative catholics say the same thing.

It's hard to tell if they aren't "whistling past the graveyard." Even so, the dangers of spontaneous Papal utterances is on display. Pope Francis has the gentle as doves part down pat, but his wise as serpents needs work.

11 posted on 09/20/2013 1:25:25 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (John 15:19)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Jeff Chandler
Sooner or later we're going to have a problem with Pope Francis. The only economy with which he has any experience is the Peronista version of Fascism that he lived under in Argentina. He has no idea of what a free market looks like, or how it works.

Is he the punishment for our sins, as many think Obama is the punishment for the sins of Americans?

13 posted on 09/20/2013 1:57:42 PM PDT by JoeFromSidney ( book, RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY, available from Amazon.)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Even so, the dangers of spontaneous Papal utterances is on display. Pope Francis has the gentle as doves part down pat, but his wise as serpents needs work.

Jeff, you watch the news ... you are a contemporary individual. We live in an age of sound bites. Faced with a 12,000 page interview, who are the industrious souls who read each and every word ... AND ... were able to understand them within the context of the Catholic Church's teachings? Name one NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, FOX or even AlJAZEERA news anchor(ette) up to that challenge, especially on the same day the interview was published by the Jesuit press. The interview was with his own community, not with the mainstream media. Unless and until any printed or televised media can rise to that challenge, they should limit their reporting to reporting, and not commentary.

14 posted on 09/20/2013 2:27:23 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer
they should limit their reporting to reporting, and not commentary.

That's not the way the world works. The Vatican should learn to be shrewd in the public square.

15 posted on 09/20/2013 2:37:48 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (John 15:19)
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To: JoeFromSidney
Sooner or later we're going to have a problem with Pope Francis.

As long as the problem is prudential, it need not be permanent.

We need to pray for him.

16 posted on 09/20/2013 2:39:21 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (John 15:19)
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To: Jeff Chandler
That's not the way the world works. The Vatican should learn to be shrewd in the public square.

Lol ... That is not the way the Vatican works :-) This interview was not done in the public square. They glommed onto it.

17 posted on 09/20/2013 3:03:57 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer
This interview was not done in the public square.

The interview was not private, it was intended for publication.

18 posted on 09/20/2013 3:22:55 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (John 15:19)
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To: NYer

It was 12,000 words, not pages, and the Pope knew his audience would be mostly non-Catholics. Are you suggesting the Pope is too naive and ill-informed of the world to give an interview appropriate for the audience?


19 posted on 09/20/2013 3:27:46 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: Mr Rogers
It was 12,000 words,not pages,

Indeed .. 12,000 words, not pages. Still, a daunting task to read and contrast against church teaching.

and the Pope knew his audience would be mostly non-Catholics.

The interview was given to the Jesuits, a Catholic religious community. I'm sure you are not suggesting the Jesuits are not catholics.

Are you suggesting the Pope is too naive and ill-informed of the world to give an interview appropriate for the audience?

I have no personal knowledge of what arrangements and/or agreements were made prior to the interview. I am simply stating a fact. The interview was given to the Jesuit Catholic Community of which the pope is a member.

20 posted on 09/20/2013 3:58:27 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

“The interview was given to the Jesuits, a Catholic religious community. I’m sure you are not suggesting the Jesuits are not catholics.”

Was the interview a private one with Jesuits, or translated and meant for public publication? Who was the REAL audience? And how did the REAL audience react?

It is silly to suggest the Pope gave this interview, for public publication around the world, for Jesuits only. The intended audience was the world, and the world reacted predictably. If the Pope didn’t predict the reaction, he is stupid. If he did, then he is damaging the cause of Christianity, and cutting off Christians around the world who are under attack for believing and preaching traditional Christian morality - and the need for repentance.

I’m a baptist, but that means my values are under attack. Real attack. It is increasingly likely that I could lose a job, lose a business or face some other punishment for refusing to say homosexuality is OK. But too many supposedly Christian churches have watered down what it means to convert, and made it a question of feeling good about yourself instead of first rejecting what you are and are going to be unless God invades your life. We see large churches fill the pews with calls to become friends with God, without first recognizing that we are born enemies of God and God-haters.

Frankly, I don’t need what has long been a pretty reliable ally going wobbly, and suggesting evil is...well, not so bad.

The Gospel includes:

“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

That isn’t quite the ‘we need to see God in the face next to us’ preaching that marks the ‘seeker churches’ and now the Catholic church. If Christians don’t take sin seriously, why should the world?

If Jesus discussed Hell, shouldn’t we?


21 posted on 09/20/2013 4:23:56 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Hans Kung: “I was overwhelmed by joy”
The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in the aforesaid document of 1975 refrained at the time from further action regarding the above-mentioned opinions of Professor Küng, presuming that he himself would abandon them. But since this presumption no longer exists, this sacred congregation by reason of its duty is constrained to declare that Professor Hans Küng, in his writings, has departed from the integral truth of Catholic faith, and therefore he can no longer be considered a Catholic theologian nor function as such in a teaching role.

Declaration regarding certain aspects of the theological doctrine of Professor Hans Küng – Christi Ecclesia

The rest are no better...

22 posted on 09/20/2013 5:14:22 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: Mr Rogers

Mr Rogers, as a Catholic, I agree with you. His remarks smack of the nitwit. As remarked in this section also, his real-life experience is in a Perot-dominated Argentina. He did not have to cut his teeth on a Nazi and then Communist dominated society like Pope John Paul II, nor did he have to bear up under the Nazis as did Benedict XVI.

He comes across as nothing more than a pussified Jesuit. As an aside, we had a pro-life conference a couple of years ago here in San Diego, and Father Mitch Pacwa, a Jesuit and an excellent priest, was a speaker. The master of ceremonies introduced him as “Father Mitch Pacwa, a Jesuit AND a practicing Catholic.” The joke was lost on no one, including the good Father.

When announcing his world day of prayer, I thought, “OK, this is very good.” Then I read his remarks preceding this day of prayer. Something to the effect of ‘I want peace, I want it with all my heart!’ And so on ... peace is good, war is bad. Thanks for the insight there, Francis.

Meanwhile, one pronouncement after another of his has to be ‘explained’ after the fact. 1 Corinthians 14:8 “Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?”

From the Eddie Griffin Bible study:

So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

I don’t know if you heard about this, but within a few hours of Pope Benedict’s resignation, lightning struck the Vatican twice, and when he went to Castel Gandalfo it was struck by an earthquake.

Video here at about the 8:20 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmW3WLfbYNM

So maybe, probably, Pope Benedict XVI made a HUGE mistake and now we are saddled with a much-lesser light guiding the Church.

Catholics at all times are to pray for the Pope, as Christians are supposed to pray for their leaders. It’s just that at certain times it is easier than others.


23 posted on 09/20/2013 6:09:38 PM PDT by stisidore (MM, let's see here)
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To: Jeff Chandler

One thing the American bishops have never done is go through the American political system, and delineate clearly: What are the responsibilities of: Legislators, governors, judges, and the President.

In Catholic moral teaching, it is the duty of the governors of all fifty states to NULLIFY edicts from the federal government to allow or finance abortion. Every Catholic governor who allowed the “legalization” of abortion by the Supreme Court should have been denied Communion, and possibly excommunicated. Every Catholic in a state legislature or in Congress who voted pro-abortion, even once, should have been denied Communion immediately, and possibly excommunicated.

After forty years, NO bishop has laid out, in an orderly and comprehensive way, just why the actions of pro-abortion governors and legislators are sinful, and what their duties are.

And then, of course, there are the pro-abortion bishops—Malone, Roach, Bernardin—mercifully all gone.


24 posted on 09/20/2013 6:33:49 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: Jeff Chandler

LOL! Because that’s not what Pope Francis said.


25 posted on 09/20/2013 6:51:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Salvation, dear, did you read the article?


26 posted on 09/20/2013 7:20:15 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (John 15:19)
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To: Jeff Chandler

This is the most accurate description of this papacy, and what to expect. I have had this gnawing feeling reading all the blogs and columnists these weeks, but I couldn’t give words to my disquiet. The great George Neumayr has now done this for me.


27 posted on 09/20/2013 7:46:08 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: jobim
The great George Neumayr has now done this for me.

He did it last March.

28 posted on 09/20/2013 7:52:12 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (John 15:19)
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To: Jeff Chandler
He did it last March

Why do you remind me of this? I did read it without checking the date (which I never want to do), and found it as I mentioned. Are you pointing something out about this date that I should know?
29 posted on 09/20/2013 8:03:16 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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